Quote: DrakeDragon on 04/03/2012, 07:22 PM - view

Again, you seem to have this impression that everyone who reads a guide will follow it to the letter, never improve, and never follow new advice. The issue here is that IF someone does this, then they arent going to be getting very far without a guide anyway. If anything, a guide will help bring those players to a higher level than they would achieve by themselves.

More information, provided that it has some basis in reality, is never a bad thing.

If your argument is that everyone who reads a guide is unable to judge for themselves what is good or bad, then you could not be more wrong.

It is with the fault fo the person, not the guide, if they never bother trying any other strategy.

But still, you havent raised a valid reason WHY guides should not be allowed on this forum.

I mean, come on, now you are telling me "reading a guide will lower your brain activity". I cannot believe you actually wrote that...

One last time, and say it with me:

Guides =/= one build to rule them all.

Quote: VenomPhoenix on 04/03/2012, 07:43 PM - view

i gave pros and cons to both things, if you cannot do the same, and only say "nope your wrong" without any proof or even attempts, it is your loss, i tried to show i'm not completely against guides, just certain kinds of guides, and you still didnt accept that, that is not my fault.

personally, i wouldn't want to party or play in a group/guild with people who are only able to follow guides to play games, i like creativity in people.

this also isn't a peeing contest, i've provided enough detail as to why i think guides aren't that great, i also provided info as to why some guides are good.

Tips, hints, and advice aren't the same as a guide, so please do not group it into your argument saying that is what guides are for, because they aren't.

Tips, hints and advice are timbits of information, not a huge book of every piece of info on how to make certain builds work (as i said, builds, more then 1)

some things posted as guides, i've viewed as more so a tips/advice thread, more then a guide, there is one guide i will always look at, and that is http://tera.enmasse.com/game-guide the official guide made for the game by the people in charge of the game, that is the only guide that should be posted, everything else should be titled under Tips/Hints/Advice, unless otherwise stated by a mod or Gm.

Alright, then you'll know that not every person that puts up a guide puts it up to make everyone follow / spoil their gameplay. It's more of a side affect that goes with it. People can put up guides here all they want. Ultimately it is up to the player to decide whether to follow it to the letter or partially.

The thing that makes this game different is that many of the glyphs used in this game are more "Utility" choices, rather than straight up "talent Builds". Players research and look for ways to maximize output in many situations possible. They release these results and see if people out there find it useful, or find ways to improve upon it. Hence why we refer to them as Guides, and not Instructions. Guides are not always accurate and only portray one part of game-play. It helps other players learn more about their class, and allows them to experiment more based on what others have found useful / not useful. If someone feels something wrong, they can add their input and make modifications to it, or ask questions as to why something is the way it is.

This extensive process to modifying guides will eventually bring out quite possibly the best way to play a class. These are the ones that most people choose to follow, as it quite literally does bring out the maximum potential of a class. This is the one I believe you are concerned with, as it literally brings you to follow it to the end. These are the kind of guides that kind of guides that reveal how the customization of a character is limited. Not to worry though, I don't think there will be enough due to how the glyph system is set up. It will be difficult to find a perfect build in this game through glyph points, and stats.

Over-all, guides are alright in my opinion, and you can still bring your own unique flavor into it. We also don't need to fear for *The Best way to play* showing up any time soon since there will rarely be a best for all situations.

Quote: Koltan on 04/03/2012, 08:04 PM - view
+90 char
well put, and i agree with most parts of what you say, and yes it is the end-game content builds i feel strongly against, not the ones people are posting right now, because those ones are mostly helpful hints.

i've already made my mind up on how i want to design my characters, which most of my designs are playable only by me, not being ego-happy, its true, i've tested it with 20 people using characters on 5 games i've played.

Unique characters are the best you can make, make it work for you, and only you, it puts a signature on your character.

With tera though, i believe guides should just be ignored, and people should come together, to make a good helpful tips/hints/advice thread, not a build thread, just highly informative stuff on each class, race, and all skills, nothing paired together, just skills with skills, classes with classes, and races with races, the pros and cons of everything, letting people read through a player made thread of what the general populist have learned about the game.

some may argue that it sounds just like a guide, but most guides have step to step info on certain race+class+skill set up, this would just be everything in their respective places, nothing put together.

it is one thing to read what the people in charge of the game says about each race/class/skills, it is another to see what the players say.

Quote: DrakeDragon on 04/03/2012, 07:56 PM - view

FINE. It was a bunch of fallacious nonsense but ill go through them one by one.

>You limit yourself and gamestyle if you follow them

Only if you are a simpleton. Normal people use guides as just that, a guide. You adapt it to suit your own playstyle. Especially in TERA, where you cannot have a guaranteed exact placement, a guaranteed amount of time to DPS uninterrupted etc.

>You are taking someones elses advice at heart, before attempting something yourself.

Also the fault of the person, not the guide. Ever hear of taking things with a grain of salt? Everyone should practice what they read... It either works or it doesnt. If its not an improvement... and they keep doing it... then they simply are not a good player. Nobody reads something and goes "oh, it must be true, i read it on the internet!".

I have no idea why you think people will not examine their effectiveness pre or post guide. If they follow a guides advice and stop trying to improve... its not a problem with guides...

>Every guide has a counter part, which means you are setting yourself up for an automatic failure.

This is true for all classes, guide or no guide. You expect someone to be able to read a guide and be useless against others, whereas they would have been fine beforehand? A good player adapts their strategy. If your opponent is dodging your charged attacks, use your fast ones, etc. etc.

You cannot blame a guide for someone refusing to adapt to the situation. Thats a fault of the player. In fact, a lot of guides give information on different strategies to use, and you can pick one as needed to suit your immediate surroundings.


>Advice is given when you ask specific questions, you get specific answers.

This is what guides do.

>Tips can help ease your frustration, and you make friends this way, by interacting.

This is what guilds are for. If the only way you can make friends is by spamming "please help me learn to play x class", then you wont be very popular. One could argue that by reading a guide, building a solid knowledge foundation, and skilling up, you can be the one people go to for information and get the same benefit. Regardless, saying "but peple wont talk to eachother as much if guides exist" is pure nonsense.

>Hints are good to get, it doesn't solve the puzzle for you, but helps you solve, also improves brain activity. --argue that?

Link to journal article about brain activity please. My gosh you have no understanding of biopsychology. I just... wow... If anything, better neural connections are made, with better conditioned behaviours after learning about the class before trying to optimize your playstyle in game.


>People who are generally trying to help, get to help a lot of people at one time, and most posters are always willing to take ADVICE.

Yep, a very good point.

>People who are completely lost, and aren't able to move forward can turn to these to help them.

Precisely.

>After making a few characters designed after your personality, you want a rounded off good character to be helpful on harder raids if your other characters arent up to par.

What? If your aim is to do end game content, you optimise YOURSELF. You do not blindly follow a guide...What are you even talking about? If your other characters arent "up to par" then you were obviously doing something wrong.

>Relying on people too much, will slow your brain activity, and you will get in the habbit of always requesting help.

Link to journal article please. Dependancy does not lower brain activity, like you seem to think it does. You are butchering biopsychology to suit your own agenda.

>Some tips, or hints may be spoilers for things to come (Not always true for all games)

I fial to see the relevance. "oh no, they mgiht have spoilers!" is not a reason to ban guides on this forum.

>Some hints may make a person feel inadequate, because of the phrases people may use. Example "it's common sense dude".

You sure do like making claims without evidence. Are you a registered psychologist? If not, what gives you the authority to make that claim?

Firstly, a guide does not necessitate such language, and secondly, even if it does, it would not cause feelings of inadequacy.

If you get your feelings hurt over something so trivial, then maybe the internet is not the place for you, let alone MMOs.



Lastly, stop trying to get gudies banned. If you cannot show hard evidence how they are detrimental to the community, then you must realize its silly to ask for it to happen. I can show plenty of evidence to the contrary, how after reading a guide, someone can become better at a game.

You constantly jump back to the assertion that guides give the impression of one ultimate build that cannot be cahnged, and the jump to the opposite and say that you are aware that guides offer a variety of builds and a huge amount of information in regards to skills etc.

Guides are not a bad thing, and definately shouldnt be bnned from the forums.

It saves alot of people their sanity.

I'd hate to create a new character, my first character, get hooked on the game and play it for 6 months 'till I'm a really high level, join a PVP guild, and then realise my build is terribad, only to have to start again (or if it is offered, spend more real $ to reset stats/skills).

Not much we can do there. There will always be people who will do just that. Its unavoidable considering the freedom of the forums / internet. There will always be people who will create guides for others to follow. Unless you are a forum mod, and it is against COC to do it, theres not much you can really do, even if you do voice out your thoughts on the matter. Guides are too useful to be shunned by moderators, since they are there to help others.

One of these days, I'm going to have to get back into an english class, my grammar is terrible.

Quote: DrakeDragon on 04/03/2012, 08:16 PM - view

That IS a guide...

What the hell man... what do you think a guide is?

"but most guides have step to step info on certain race+class+skill set up, this would just be everything in their respective places, nothing put together."

THIS makes absolutely no sense at all... do you mean builds? rotations? I dont know but its exactly the same as what you said you DO like.


EDIT:

I just wanted to reiterate that if your entire argument is "but people will all use the same build and never think for themselves",,, then you are making a massive strawman, that, for the last time, is the fault of the player, not the guide.

And also, as much as you might hate it, VenomPhoenix shares the same concept as I have explained to you. As hostile as it may sound, he is right.

VenomPhoenix is pretty much correct. Speaking truth in such elegant ways. I take back all the mean things i said about you in the P2W thread Venom. ;p

Guides are good!