EdgeTO
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#71
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I can't believe how watered down and [filtered]ized the term "grind" has become over the years.
HauntingBard
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#72
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Some posters seem to miss my point, they try to argue everything with out giving it a proper thought.
It's common sense if you ask me.
So the dumped down version.
A: You designed a lot of low level content BAMS/Crafting/Tokens/Quests and what not.
B: You don't have a lot of end game content yet.
C: Game is being reworked and late summer we get a patch for that.
You either.
1: Keep this exp rate and people will reach end game content in no time.
Meaning your low level content will be skipped.
You also risk people getting bored pretty fast.
2: You basically decrease the exp a bit, people will be busy for a month or so with the low level content.
On top of it the time gap between max level and the patch is smaller.
Chances are people get less bored and are still busy.
To me it's common sense to go for two.
Edit:
Most people don't know what grind is, they just think a lower exp gain means grinding the same mobs 500 times while the game provides enough quests and alternatives to do different.
It's common sense if you ask me.
So the dumped down version.
A: You designed a lot of low level content BAMS/Crafting/Tokens/Quests and what not.
B: You don't have a lot of end game content yet.
C: Game is being reworked and late summer we get a patch for that.
You either.
1: Keep this exp rate and people will reach end game content in no time.
Meaning your low level content will be skipped.
You also risk people getting bored pretty fast.
2: You basically decrease the exp a bit, people will be busy for a month or so with the low level content.
On top of it the time gap between max level and the patch is smaller.
Chances are people get less bored and are still busy.
To me it's common sense to go for two.
Edit:
Most people don't know what grind is, they just think a lower exp gain means grinding the same mobs 500 times while the game provides enough quests and alternatives to do different.
Edited by: HauntingBard
about 1 year ago
Mahayana
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#73
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@ Miryu
Ill try to give my opinion on some of your points.
Note, I understand tera can't now and maybe will not implement anyway to satisfy all this... but its a start :)
The reason leveling is important and why it should take a long time is cause the pattern of pacing is important. The pattern is: Explore, Learn, Overcome, and Achieve. This pattern should happen every time you are in a certain area in a certain level bracket. I say this is important because MMORPGs were created from a form of progression through conquering things and learning from all that conquering in order to figure out how to conquer the next thing. Old MMORPGs really never had much endgame because they were all about this pacing pattern. And it worked. Endgame content was nice but I remember most my level cap days in old MMORPGs were spent helping other people starting out and helping them better their classes.
Let me explain each of the pattern's steps cause they are all Important and I believe It will help you understand where most people are coming from when they say they want longer leveling.
First off Exploring
Longer leveling by default keeps you in an area longer. And the longer you're in an area, the more time you may have to explore different places to find quests or monsters. Devs put so many nice looking things in games and for them to be just breezed by is insulting at times.
Learning
First lets assume this was a game where almost every new zone, you learned a new fundamental spell or ability.
I know some people say they can learn how to play in a minute or so. I know i will offend but those people are broken down into:
10% honestly good players that pick stuff up super fast and learn the inside and out of a spell or ability quickly
90% people who THINK they know what this spell or ability does but doesn't know the half of it truly. And if these people didn't Google the tips and tricks they would be shut down.
Taking the leveling paces down will give players more time with the spells or abilities and more time for the devs to throw in occurrences where you would have to think outside the box with a spell or ability. This ultimately makes the player more skilled and knowledgeable so the devs can push harder content on them for the finally of the zone.
Overcome
The finally of the zone should have something truly challenging and relative to the stuff you have been doing in that zone. If there isn't anything like that the zone turns into a non memorable anti climatic waste of time. And the final step in the pacing is worthless.
Achieve
The psychological sense of achievement is impossible to meet unless all these other steps were followed. That sense of "I put some effort in this and I almost got killed multiple times" (or possibly did die). And a reward should also be presented. May it be in the form of a dramatic cut scene or an item or possibly a new fundamental skill.
And I'll be honest. I have felt achievement in a MMORPG for a long time. You want to know why the MMORPG genre is in the toilet at the moment? Because too many solo player game developers and publishers saw MMORPGs as a way to get more money via a subscription. And because people who lavishly followed these devs and pubs. They bought whatever they were selling. And once they realized the stuff was crap, people complained and the devs and pubs responded by falling back on what they knew best; the devs with their solo player mechanics, and the publishers with their attempts to force devs to "dumb" down content to appeal to larger audiences who only play casually.
All that flies right in the face of what MMORPGs used to stand for and it quite frankly pisses quite a few people off.
And now that the market has become super saturated with "casual" MMORPGs, a false statistic of what people want in MMORPGs was been written in stone. That stone needs to be smashed as soon as possible.
I know I just threw the C word out a few times there and I'm sorry if it offends someone. Let me explain how both parties can be satisfied.
Appeal to the hardcore gamers 80% of the time. Honestly this division of dedication to a game shouldn't separate us. It should bring us together as varied levels provide a community that is varied largely in which part of the game they are playing at that moment. Honestly whats wrong with that?
And i didn't even say WoW or FFXI once..... oh sh!t ><
Ill try to give my opinion on some of your points.
Note, I understand tera can't now and maybe will not implement anyway to satisfy all this... but its a start :)
The reason leveling is important and why it should take a long time is cause the pattern of pacing is important. The pattern is: Explore, Learn, Overcome, and Achieve. This pattern should happen every time you are in a certain area in a certain level bracket. I say this is important because MMORPGs were created from a form of progression through conquering things and learning from all that conquering in order to figure out how to conquer the next thing. Old MMORPGs really never had much endgame because they were all about this pacing pattern. And it worked. Endgame content was nice but I remember most my level cap days in old MMORPGs were spent helping other people starting out and helping them better their classes.
Let me explain each of the pattern's steps cause they are all Important and I believe It will help you understand where most people are coming from when they say they want longer leveling.
First off Exploring
Longer leveling by default keeps you in an area longer. And the longer you're in an area, the more time you may have to explore different places to find quests or monsters. Devs put so many nice looking things in games and for them to be just breezed by is insulting at times.
Learning
First lets assume this was a game where almost every new zone, you learned a new fundamental spell or ability.
I know some people say they can learn how to play in a minute or so. I know i will offend but those people are broken down into:
10% honestly good players that pick stuff up super fast and learn the inside and out of a spell or ability quickly
90% people who THINK they know what this spell or ability does but doesn't know the half of it truly. And if these people didn't Google the tips and tricks they would be shut down.
Taking the leveling paces down will give players more time with the spells or abilities and more time for the devs to throw in occurrences where you would have to think outside the box with a spell or ability. This ultimately makes the player more skilled and knowledgeable so the devs can push harder content on them for the finally of the zone.
Overcome
The finally of the zone should have something truly challenging and relative to the stuff you have been doing in that zone. If there isn't anything like that the zone turns into a non memorable anti climatic waste of time. And the final step in the pacing is worthless.
Achieve
The psychological sense of achievement is impossible to meet unless all these other steps were followed. That sense of "I put some effort in this and I almost got killed multiple times" (or possibly did die). And a reward should also be presented. May it be in the form of a dramatic cut scene or an item or possibly a new fundamental skill.
And I'll be honest. I have felt achievement in a MMORPG for a long time. You want to know why the MMORPG genre is in the toilet at the moment? Because too many solo player game developers and publishers saw MMORPGs as a way to get more money via a subscription. And because people who lavishly followed these devs and pubs. They bought whatever they were selling. And once they realized the stuff was crap, people complained and the devs and pubs responded by falling back on what they knew best; the devs with their solo player mechanics, and the publishers with their attempts to force devs to "dumb" down content to appeal to larger audiences who only play casually.
All that flies right in the face of what MMORPGs used to stand for and it quite frankly pisses quite a few people off.
And now that the market has become super saturated with "casual" MMORPGs, a false statistic of what people want in MMORPGs was been written in stone. That stone needs to be smashed as soon as possible.
I know I just threw the C word out a few times there and I'm sorry if it offends someone. Let me explain how both parties can be satisfied.
Appeal to the hardcore gamers 80% of the time. Honestly this division of dedication to a game shouldn't separate us. It should bring us together as varied levels provide a community that is varied largely in which part of the game they are playing at that moment. Honestly whats wrong with that?
And i didn't even say WoW or FFXI once..... oh sh!t ><
Edited by: Mahayana
about 1 year ago
DrakeDragon
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#74
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HauntingBard on 04/05/2012, 12:25 PM - view
yep, but you forget that most of these people against this are probably teenagers who want nothing but blood and gore right away, so they want cap level in a day to pvp.
which is why i said pvp servers can stay however they are, pve and rp-pve servers should get nerf.
covers more bases, but what you said is exactly true, people will miss at least %40 of the game content, if not more.
FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK THIS IS ONLY FOR PVP, IT ISN'T, GO BACK TO FPS IF YOU WANT PVP FOCUS'D GAMES.
lets take this time to understand what mmorpg actually means....
M=massive M=multiplayer O=Online R-Role P-Playing G-Game
it does not mean "me get top lvl 1 day in game, gank all low level to ruin fun of other! adoooooy"
which is why servers are now split, simply join the respected server you belong too, and DO NOT try to ruin stuff for other people.
Some posters seem to miss my point, they try to argue everything with out giving it a proper thought.
It's common sense if you ask me.
So the dumped down version.
A: You designed a lot of low level content BAMS/Crafting/Tokens/Quests and what not.
B: You don't have a lot of end game content yet.
C: Game is being reworked and late summer we get a patch for that.
You either.
1: Keep this exp rate and people will reach end game content in no time.
Meaning your low level content will be skipped.
You also risk people getting bored pretty fast.
2: You basically decrease the exp a bit, people will be busy for a month or so with the low level content.
On top of it the time gap between max level and the patch is smaller.
Chances are people get less bored and are still busy.
To me it's common sense to go for two.
Edit:
Most people don't know what grind is, they just think a lower exp gain means grinding the same mobs 500 times while the game provides enough quests and alternatives to do different.
yep, but you forget that most of these people against this are probably teenagers who want nothing but blood and gore right away, so they want cap level in a day to pvp.
which is why i said pvp servers can stay however they are, pve and rp-pve servers should get nerf.
covers more bases, but what you said is exactly true, people will miss at least %40 of the game content, if not more.
FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK THIS IS ONLY FOR PVP, IT ISN'T, GO BACK TO FPS IF YOU WANT PVP FOCUS'D GAMES.
lets take this time to understand what mmorpg actually means....
M=massive M=multiplayer O=Online R-Role P-Playing G-Game
it does not mean "me get top lvl 1 day in game, gank all low level to ruin fun of other! adoooooy"
which is why servers are now split, simply join the respected server you belong too, and DO NOT try to ruin stuff for other people.
Mahayana
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#75
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Modster55 on 04/05/2012, 11:16 AM - view
I protest because of all i just said above. I too can only dedicate maybe 5 hours a day too. I just like long games. what if your favorite magazine you subscribed to blew out all its content in like 4 months and from then on was garbage.... you would call bull[filtered] and quit subbing... rinse and repeat
This thread is stupiddd...
it's people who can play 16+ hours a day (the reason why you can get to max in a few days) vs people that play 2-6 hours a day (the reason why it takes weeks to a month to get to max lvl).
IMO, the players that can sit at their computer for 12-16 hours a day should just stop. you are the minority. it's clearly insane and dumb to do this. why are you doing this anyway? you rush to max and get bored, especially if the community is not at max yet. Why can't any of you just slowly enjoy the game? cause you have nothing better to do? that's not anyones fault but yours. this game even tells you every hour to get off your computer.
My average will prob be 4 hours a day. With the crafting, PvP, losing my self in the graphics, waiting for groups for dungeons and chatting with the guild and politics system. i will prob get to max lvl in a month.
compared to my last mmo I played, swtor. I did EVERYTHING at 4 hours a day. did EVERY quest+ bonuses, maxed out crafting, did lots of pvp, every dungeons AND not skip the dialog and all that took me 2 weeks. Every level in swtor only took an hour or 2. I highly doubt i will get to max lvl in 2 weeks in this game at 4 hours a day, especially since pvp will give no exp and getting ganked will add more time to my progress as well.
A month to a month and a half should be the right amount of time to get to max lvl for a casual player. people wanting 3-4 months to max level are insane. The game would fail not even day 1 in the west. would fail in beta alone if this was the case. most wouldnt even bother with preorder.
I protest because of all i just said above. I too can only dedicate maybe 5 hours a day too. I just like long games. what if your favorite magazine you subscribed to blew out all its content in like 4 months and from then on was garbage.... you would call bull[filtered] and quit subbing... rinse and repeat
kdchan
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#76
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HauntingBard - view
You really play the game? I reach level 38 in the last beta and it was grindy and slow, yes it easy for the first 25 levels but after a certain point, likely 30+ the game turn to be a grindfest where quest reward is not so good and you are force to do more and more in every hub.
Stop suggesting changes to please your own tastes, expecially if you don't have idea how leveling curve work. The leveling curve is always the only westernized thing i approve because koreans are known for liking massive and redundand grind.
IF you like so much endless grind ask them to create the RP servers with super slow progression and play there with your no life friends, ok?
Most people don't know what grind is, they just think a lower exp gain means grinding the same mobs 500 times while the game provides enough quests and alternatives to do different.
You really play the game? I reach level 38 in the last beta and it was grindy and slow, yes it easy for the first 25 levels but after a certain point, likely 30+ the game turn to be a grindfest where quest reward is not so good and you are force to do more and more in every hub.
Stop suggesting changes to please your own tastes, expecially if you don't have idea how leveling curve work. The leveling curve is always the only westernized thing i approve because koreans are known for liking massive and redundand grind.
IF you like so much endless grind ask them to create the RP servers with super slow progression and play there with your no life friends, ok?
Edited by: kdchan
about 1 year ago
DrakeDragon
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#77
0
kdchan on 04/05/2012, 12:32 PM - view
try spending 30+ hours do the same thing to get 0.1% skill increase, then try to complain something is grindy.
or better yet, try having to go out, getting the resources, which would take long enough, then going back to doing that one thing and hoping you farmed enough sources to get even 1.0 of a skill?
of course i'm talking about a different game, not one most people would recognize though.
or how about grinding for 15 hours straight to get %15 of a level up? my goodness.
oh and hey i'm not talking about korean games either, i'm talking about a game made in NA.
people don't know what grinding is apparently, or at least most people don't
agreed now.
HauntingBardMost people don't know what grind is, they just think a lower exp gain means grinding the same mobs 500 times while the game provides enough quests and alternatives to do different.
You really play the game? I reach level 38 in the last beta and it was grindy and slow, yes it easy for th first 25 levels but after a certain point, likely 30+ the game turn to be a grindfest where quest reward is not so good and you are force to do more and more in every hub.
Stop suggesting changes to please your own tastes for everyone expecially if you don't have idea how leveling curve work. The leveling curve is always the only westernized thing i approve because koreans are know for liking massive and redundand grind.
try spending 30+ hours do the same thing to get 0.1% skill increase, then try to complain something is grindy.
or better yet, try having to go out, getting the resources, which would take long enough, then going back to doing that one thing and hoping you farmed enough sources to get even 1.0 of a skill?
of course i'm talking about a different game, not one most people would recognize though.
or how about grinding for 15 hours straight to get %15 of a level up? my goodness.
oh and hey i'm not talking about korean games either, i'm talking about a game made in NA.
people don't know what grinding is apparently, or at least most people don't
#71 04/05/2012, 12:23 PM
I can't believe how watered down and [filtered]ized the term "grind" has become over the years.
kdchan
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#78
0
DrakeDragon - view
You still continue to suggest changes fo everyone, stop doing this please, i like the actual leveling curve, majority like this "westernized" progression because majority has a life. Have fun online to play a game don't mean have a second job.
Again if you want your slow progression ask for a server where YOU and people who agree with you can play with super grind. The actual ruleset is perfect as it is, expecially for the PVP server where i'm playing atm.
ps: After 30 for me the game turn to be very grindy and quest reward is pretty low, i only imagine at 50+, and you want nerf the exp? Lol.
try spending 30+ hours do the same thing to get 0.1% skill increase, then try to complain something is grindy.
or better yet, try having to go out, getting the resources, which would take long enough, then going back to doing that one thing and hoping you farmed enough sources to get even 1.0 of a skill?
of course i'm talking about a different game, not one most people would recognize though.
or how about grinding for 15 hours straight to get %15 of a level up? my goodness.
oh and hey i'm not talking about korean games either, i'm talking about a game made in NA.
people don't know what grinding is apparently, or at least most people don't.
You still continue to suggest changes fo everyone, stop doing this please, i like the actual leveling curve, majority like this "westernized" progression because majority has a life. Have fun online to play a game don't mean have a second job.
Again if you want your slow progression ask for a server where YOU and people who agree with you can play with super grind. The actual ruleset is perfect as it is, expecially for the PVP server where i'm playing atm.
ps: After 30 for me the game turn to be very grindy and quest reward is pretty low, i only imagine at 50+, and you want nerf the exp? Lol.
Edited by: kdchan
about 1 year ago
DrakeDragon
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#79
0
kdchan on 04/05/2012, 12:44 PM - view
it isn't super grind kid, and uhh excuse me? try reading my posts? i said to change it in pve and rp-pve servers and leave pvp server alone.
whoa you are arrogant, you think anything that takes more then an hour is grind....with that attitude enjoy working at fast food restaurants.
to your logic, a tattooist grinds at his job, because some tattoos require literally hundreds of hours of work, making games is also a grinding job...way to go on your logic if anything takes alittle more time, it isn't worth doing....
DrakeDragontry spending 30+ hours do the same thing to get 0.1% skill increase, then try to complain something is grindy.
or better yet, try having to go out, getting the resources, which would take long enough, then going back to doing that one thing and hoping you farmed enough sources to get even 1.0 of a skill?
of course i'm talking about a different game, not one most people would recognize though.
or how about grinding for 15 hours straight to get %15 of a level up? my goodness.
oh and hey i'm not talking about korean games either, i'm talking about a game made in NA.
people don't know what grinding is apparently, or at least most people don't.
you still continue to suggest changes fo everyone, stop doing this, i like the actual leveling curve, majority like this "westernization".
Again if you want your slow progression ask for a server where YOU and people who agree with you can play with super grind.
it isn't super grind kid, and uhh excuse me? try reading my posts? i said to change it in pve and rp-pve servers and leave pvp server alone.
whoa you are arrogant, you think anything that takes more then an hour is grind....with that attitude enjoy working at fast food restaurants.
to your logic, a tattooist grinds at his job, because some tattoos require literally hundreds of hours of work, making games is also a grinding job...way to go on your logic if anything takes alittle more time, it isn't worth doing....
kdchan
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#80
0
DrakeDragon - view
You force your vision and tastes into me and you call me arrogant? Changing the actual ruleset mean changing it for everyone not only for you, you are a selfish brat with no life, nothing more. I've a life and a job so i'm sorry, i want to play a game and have fun not sit down and do redundant and annoy tasks 24/7.
The game after level 30 is grindy for me, hub quest return crap, so your logic fail. Before claim this game is too easy reach level 60 then come back to Q_Q. And if some nerds reach level 60 is 2 weeks is not your damn business, let them do it, is their playstyle, nothing bad with it.
whoa you are arrogant, you think anything that takes more then an hour is grind....with that attitude enjoy working at fast food restaurants.
You force your vision and tastes into me and you call me arrogant? Changing the actual ruleset mean changing it for everyone not only for you, you are a selfish brat with no life, nothing more. I've a life and a job so i'm sorry, i want to play a game and have fun not sit down and do redundant and annoy tasks 24/7.
to your logic, a tattooist grinds at his job, because some tattoos require literally hundreds of hours of work, making games is also a grinding job...way to go on your logic if anything takes alittle more time, it isn't worth doing....
The game after level 30 is grindy for me, hub quest return crap, so your logic fail. Before claim this game is too easy reach level 60 then come back to Q_Q. And if some nerds reach level 60 is 2 weeks is not your damn business, let them do it, is their playstyle, nothing bad with it.
Edited by: kdchan
about 1 year ago