Quote: super233 on 05/07/2012, 07:21 PM

Quote: Gofers on 05/07/2012, 07:04 PM

Quote: super233 on 05/07/2012, 06:17 PM

In my honest opinion, damage meters ruin character customization. They create cookie cutter builds, so if you want to raid or do hard mode dungeons, you need to play how a website tells you to.



I really can't see a need for them in TERA. If the boss is dying, who cares? If the person dies to much or you just see them standing there, kick them. You really don't need a damage meter in any game to be successful.

There is not a whole lot of customization to allow cookie cutter builds. We don't have a load of talent trees. Most of the playstyle of a class is baseline with a few glyphs to adjust to that a minor amount from the normal.

Damage meters are a tool. They are to help you improve yourself. Don't tell me they ruin the way you play. That is very selfish. If you're in a guild and consider them to at least be friends, then you should at least be willing to play your class better for your guild to better advance itself. But if you're holding your guild back, how will you know if you don't have a way to track your damage? What if the other two dps die, healer is running Oom healing and cant' stop to rez and you ran out of scrolls. That group wont be happy to rely on your dps because you want to play how you want to.

There is only ONE argument this game has that can be said about why damage meters shouldn't be in the game, and that is the lack of enrage timers. I personally haven't seen one yet, but I am not at hard modes either. I assume healer mana is the soft enrage. Which makes it important to reduce the duration of the fight.

I don't understand why you want to play a game how someones tells you to. I played WoW for quite a bit, and I played however I wanted to and topped the damage meters in nearly every fight. I don't need someone to tell me how to play so I can think I'm good.

Because I played to play it good. I enjoy playing good. Always have.

And again, this game has very little flexibility in playing the right way.

I don't understand why you think you should be able to play "your way" and still beat compete with those who play to their max.

If you have the best archer in the world fighting a boss,
and next to him one who does nothing but whatever their base attack is.
Do you think they should be able to compete? This is the extreme example but what your telling me is that they should be able to compete.

It's not about being told how to play. It's about playing it "right" or how the devs chose is "right".

Far as WoW goes, each class had 3 trees. None of those trees were set in stone. When I left in Cata they had it set so you overall picked the same damage talents with a few points left over for utility at your choice. Game went from far too many spec's for them to balance properly to 3 trees where you pick your utility. Now the specs can be balanced. I can't remember the last time I saw a player kicked for their class. I've seen them kicked for their damage. And 99% of that was at the release of an expansion when hard modes were hard. When you couldn't carry someone who didn't want to learn their class. Who wanted to play "their way" and hold the group back.

MMORPG's are(were) about playing for the team. Not yourself. Sadly this idea of MMO's isn't thought about enough by the players. Yet the devs almost have to design the game around it otherwise why have MMO on it?

Also I see damage meters being useless and heavily inaccurate is because you WILL get people who won't move from attacks in order to make their DPS higher. Then you might be thinking "Oh wow, he did a lot of damage, he must know how to play his class right" even though he fails to move on purpose to make himself feel better from looking at some numbers.

Please inform me how getting a DPS meter will make all players perform at there "max".

I enjoy playing good too, but mainly because I am acutally good. I don't need people telling me how to play something their way in order to think I'm good because I'm just copying everyone else.


Also, who is to decide what is the "right" way to play? Just because someone pulls some good numbers with a certain build doesn't mean that is the "right" way to play a class. In many mmo's, there have been somewhat underdog builds that out dps the widely accepted cookie cutters, so who is playing their class "right" then?

Quote: Gofers on 05/07/2012, 07:36 PM

Quote: super233 on 05/07/2012, 07:21 PM

Quote: Gofers on 05/07/2012, 07:04 PM

Quote: super233 on 05/07/2012, 06:17 PM

In my honest opinion, damage meters ruin character customization. They create cookie cutter builds, so if you want to raid or do hard mode dungeons, you need to play how a website tells you to.



I really can't see a need for them in TERA. If the boss is dying, who cares? If the person dies to much or you just see them standing there, kick them. You really don't need a damage meter in any game to be successful.

There is not a whole lot of customization to allow cookie cutter builds. We don't have a load of talent trees. Most of the playstyle of a class is baseline with a few glyphs to adjust to that a minor amount from the normal.

Damage meters are a tool. They are to help you improve yourself. Don't tell me they ruin the way you play. That is very selfish. If you're in a guild and consider them to at least be friends, then you should at least be willing to play your class better for your guild to better advance itself. But if you're holding your guild back, how will you know if you don't have a way to track your damage? What if the other two dps die, healer is running Oom healing and cant' stop to rez and you ran out of scrolls. That group wont be happy to rely on your dps because you want to play how you want to.

There is only ONE argument this game has that can be said about why damage meters shouldn't be in the game, and that is the lack of enrage timers. I personally haven't seen one yet, but I am not at hard modes either. I assume healer mana is the soft enrage. Which makes it important to reduce the duration of the fight.

I don't understand why you want to play a game how someones tells you to. I played WoW for quite a bit, and I played however I wanted to and topped the damage meters in nearly every fight. I don't need someone to tell me how to play so I can think I'm good.

Because I played to play it good. I enjoy playing good. Always have.

And again, this game has very little flexibility in playing the right way.

I don't understand why you think you should be able to play "your way" and still beat compete with those who play to their max.

If you have the best archer in the world fighting a boss,
and next to him one who does nothing but whatever their base attack is.
Do you think they should be able to compete? This is the extreme example but what your telling me is that they should be able to compete.

It's not about being told how to play. It's about playing it "right" or how the devs chose is "right".

Far as WoW goes, each class had 3 trees. None of those trees were set in stone. When I left in Cata they had it set so you overall picked the same damage talents with a few points left over for utility at your choice. Game went from far too many spec's for them to balance properly to 3 trees where you pick your utility. Now the specs can be balanced. I can't remember the last time I saw a player kicked for their class. I've seen them kicked for their damage. And 99% of that was at the release of an expansion when hard modes were hard. When you couldn't carry someone who didn't want to learn their class. Who wanted to play "their way" and hold the group back.

MMORPG's are(were) about playing for the team. Not yourself. Sadly this idea of MMO's isn't thought about enough by the players. Yet the devs almost have to design the game around it otherwise why have MMO on it?

Please inform me how getting a DPS meter will make all players perform at there "max".

I enjoy playing good too, but mainly because I am acutally good. I don't need people telling me how to play something their way in order to think I'm good because I'm just copying everyone else.


Also, who is to decide what is the "right" way to play? Just because someone pulls some good numbers with a certain build doesn't mean that is the "right" way to play a class. In many mmo's, there have been somewhat underdog builds that out dps the widely accepted cookie cutters, so who is playing their class "right" then?

Quote: Gofers on 05/07/2012, 07:36 PM

*snip*

Please inform me how getting a DPS meter will make all players perform at there "max".

I enjoy playing good too, but mainly because I am acutally good. I don't need people telling me how to play something their way in order to think I'm good because I'm just copying everyone else.


Also, who is to decide what is the "right" way to play? Just because someone pulls some good numbers with a certain build doesn't mean that is the "right" way to play a class. In many mmo's, there have been somewhat underdog builds that out dps the widely accepted cookie cutters, so who is playing their class "right" then?

Quote: XIIV on 05/07/2012, 07:05 PM

Dps meter are useless. A good Dps is a dps that is not dead. Only thing it matter in this game or in any game. Dont die simple. Tera is a game made for skill not useless number

I hate to be a [filtered] but you must be bad at this game if you actually think this. Have you ever heard of enrage timers? Apparently not. Well an enrage timer is when you take a certain amount of time to kill a boss. If you don't do it in the time limit, the bosses enrages and wipes the group. This is a direct result of low dps / undergeared players.

DPS meters are incredibly useful. Seriously, anyone who is against them is either a person who is called out in other mmos because they don't know how to play the game, or someone who is to small minded to grasp the usefulness of the tool.

I actually believe that the damage taken by the DPS class is more important than the damage they are doing (so long as it is decent). Staying out of harm is key to keeping the healer from gaining too much agro.

You can take your time to kill the boss if your DPS is low but if your healer is forced to heal everyone than things are going to get ugly.

I read every post in the thread and while I don't generally agree with OP, I am not opposed to combat meters or combat log parsers. I believe they are an invaluable tool to help individuals gauge their performance and track improvement over time. I believe a tool that only measures damage output over time (pure DPS meter) to be a waste for TERA because that is not only a very poor picture of performance, it's a very skewed picture of performance.

From reading other posts I do cede there are other ways specifically in TERA to test your own performance and conclusively say "I did this encounter better" or "I am playing my class better than before". The problem I still have, as do others, is the current methods to quantify that are cumbersome and very time consuming, *IF* it is even possible to quantify things like rate of successful blocks, over-healing, percentage of damage abilities missing target.

Quote: knoxxer on 05/07/2012, 02:51 PM

I actually believe that the damage taken by the DPS class is more important than the damage they are doing (so long as it is decent). Staying out of harm is key to keeping the healer from gaining too much agro.

You can take your time to kill the boss if your DPS is low but if your healer is forced to heal everyone than things are going to get ugly.

Notice how a senior staff carefully chose their comment on this topic. What you can do with a good meter is count how many times a boss used each ability in a particular fight and how many you were hit by. If there is enough log data, you can also determine how long it took to begin damaging the boss or healing after evading certain moves. Also what about damaging moves that MISS? That's damage lost just as much as if you were dead. I can't believe someone hasn't brought that up yet in this discussion. THAT is important data. I'm also not sure in endgame if over-healing will be a factor in performance (or even if that data is/will be logged for that matter) but that could possibly be another set of data to watch as it is wasteful use of mana. Also successful blocks and damage done over block would be important to analyze if a player is timing their blocks correctly and maybe trying to block moves that should have been avoided.

As others have already stated elitism and slander are HUMAN problems that won't go away if you don't remove the human element. Already people are finding ways to single others out for what they perceive to be poor performance. Anyone can claim it gets worse if log parsers/meter addons are introduced but no one has any data so far to substantiate that claim. I don't even care that the in game log currently only shows my data and the mobs/BAMs. That's all I personally want to look at and it can stay that way.

For anyone arguing that we should just play the game and enjoy it, then you clearly don't understand that this is how some folk play the game and enjoy it. So you can have it your way, but we can't have it ours? Most of us 'number nazis' aren't trying to have fun at the expense of others. As Myxx pointed out research on MMO communities is sorely lacking considering the size of the industry and I heartily encourage him/her to change that.

Regardless of what tools are developed to help players be better players, we all still need to be respectful to our fellow human beings. Even if we don't agree.

I actually believe that the damage taken by the DPS class is more important than the damage they are doing (so long as it is decent). Staying out of harm is key to keeping the healer from gaining too much agro.

You can take your time to kill the boss if your DPS is low but if your healer is forced to heal everyone than things are going to get ugly.