EaterOfWorlds
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#31
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Nuclayer
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#32
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Serosen on 05/18/2012, 10:31 AM - view
At this point you must be trolling or you have not leveled a lancer past 40.
The real issue is you are woefully missing the point so many are trying to make.
Lancers only have the ability to tank. If you give other classes the same effectiveness to tank then you are eliminating the need for a lancer who cannot dps. Warriors can tank but it is very difficult and only optimal when your group performs perfectly.
Support is not a role and no one would take a class that only offers support in a setting where the max group is a 5 man
EaterOfWorlds on 05/18/2012, 10:29 AMSerosen on 05/18/2012, 09:00 AMLancers don't really level any slower than Warriors
Brb, I need some monitor cleaner for the Pepsi I just spit-taked
Sorry for the nasty monitor. But it's really not that much slower. Pepsi is gross.
At this point you must be trolling or you have not leveled a lancer past 40.
The real issue is you are woefully missing the point so many are trying to make.
Lancers only have the ability to tank. If you give other classes the same effectiveness to tank then you are eliminating the need for a lancer who cannot dps. Warriors can tank but it is very difficult and only optimal when your group performs perfectly.
Support is not a role and no one would take a class that only offers support in a setting where the max group is a 5 man
Edited by: Nuclayer
about 1 year ago
EaterOfWorlds
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#33
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If I recall correctly, kTera is looking into some means of increasing Lancer solo damage. Beyond buffing Warrior and Lancer tanking capabilities with that third resource "stamina" bar, bringing Lancer damage output up to Warrior damage output...hard to say which way that'd go. It starts to get into a discussion of which class has better hard control/which has better survivability/etc.
Class balance is almost strictly subjective, and heavily influenced by player skill. The best Archer Tera has ever seen could be the worst Lancer ever. There's also the PVP vs PVE discrepancy to keep in mind.
Class balance is almost strictly subjective, and heavily influenced by player skill. The best Archer Tera has ever seen could be the worst Lancer ever. There's also the PVP vs PVE discrepancy to keep in mind.
Martln
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#34
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Is it bad for us lancers to want to excel in something beyond others since we are a different "class?" Yes you all out dps me even when I am pushing my blocking times to the edge but I rarely loss aggro, keep the boss still, stop him from spawning extras, and the occasional stun. This helps the healer keep a steady grip on heals and dps can do what they do best...inflict damg.
I completely understand that a warrior with talent can do my job even better, but you know what? IF you can do what I do while doing far more damg and not dieing and keeping your party alive....then you deserve to take my job. But it does not change the fact that I love what I do and it's what I am built for.
All the ideas of changing things is just so weird to me, no class is more important then the other. It's the player that makes his class shine. I can walk in acting all pro...die....then watch an archer tank. My class means nothing if I can't perform which is why i love this game.
Honestly, let the warriors be considered tanks...I can put money on people complaining about that. And trust me, it won't be us lancers complaining.
I completely understand that a warrior with talent can do my job even better, but you know what? IF you can do what I do while doing far more damg and not dieing and keeping your party alive....then you deserve to take my job. But it does not change the fact that I love what I do and it's what I am built for.
All the ideas of changing things is just so weird to me, no class is more important then the other. It's the player that makes his class shine. I can walk in acting all pro...die....then watch an archer tank. My class means nothing if I can't perform which is why i love this game.
Honestly, let the warriors be considered tanks...I can put money on people complaining about that. And trust me, it won't be us lancers complaining.
Actually, assuming that the classes are left as is and these ideas are supplementary add-ins, they are pretty good ideas. When you think about it everyone is a dps as in they can all deal damage, however this is varied and some classes obviously suck at it compared to others. But what about tanking, healing, or support? Those are exclusive- but why do they have to be? Why can't we, if it is needed or desired, switch things up to have a shoddy tank in place of a complete lack of one; same for healing and support. True tanks and healers are irreplaceable and couldnt be replaced for major instances same as a true DPS, but say a couple friends just want to group some quests or a BAM they now have a flexible structure to play with.
Honestly, I don't think it would change the game much more than giving people more group dynamic opportunities, which is never a bad thing. The suggestions given do a fairly good job considering balance between pvp and pve, and take some consideration between pves different solo and group mechanics. Some balance to play with and some sandboxing to see how things can play out, but overall good job OP.
Honestly, I don't think it would change the game much more than giving people more group dynamic opportunities, which is never a bad thing. The suggestions given do a fairly good job considering balance between pvp and pve, and take some consideration between pves different solo and group mechanics. Some balance to play with and some sandboxing to see how things can play out, but overall good job OP.
Rhinosauce
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#36
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whether I agree or not, at least the post was well thought out. I like how the OP has used nontraditional classes in different roles. If nothing else it's a step in the right direction because it opens up good discussion; instead of the winefests we have been seeing lately.
Personally I never play a game to have a "Tank", "DPS" and "Healer". I would rather play Shadowbane where there were Fighters, Healers, Mages and Rogues; where all of those archetypes had different utilities and skills.
I love the OP's suggestions for PvP, but they may not fit just right for PvE; oh well I play on a PvP server.
Personally I never play a game to have a "Tank", "DPS" and "Healer". I would rather play Shadowbane where there were Fighters, Healers, Mages and Rogues; where all of those archetypes had different utilities and skills.
I love the OP's suggestions for PvP, but they may not fit just right for PvE; oh well I play on a PvP server.
Samyaza
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#37
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RexZShadow on 05/18/2012, 08:15 AM
Ahahaha
Mystics would like a word with you. Try having worse DPS than a Priest, having to wait a long time for queues (45+ on average, sometimes 2hrs), then getting removed from the group when you get in by the Lancer (and everyone else plays along because they don't want to have to wait again). Then when you eventually get a tank that doesn't kick you they suck, or the DPS sucks or something and you end up spending days trying to do one dungeon so you can progress a storyline quest.
Then come back here and tell me how hard a Lancer's life is.
Seriously.
Ya know why? Coz we spend the longest time lvling due to our retardaly low dmg. I personally put up with and carry so many [filtered] pug groups at the expanse of my own crystals. And all I see is people making suggestions that would make my lancer almost worthless? Ya I'm pretty pissed.
Ahahaha
Mystics would like a word with you. Try having worse DPS than a Priest, having to wait a long time for queues (45+ on average, sometimes 2hrs), then getting removed from the group when you get in by the Lancer (and everyone else plays along because they don't want to have to wait again). Then when you eventually get a tank that doesn't kick you they suck, or the DPS sucks or something and you end up spending days trying to do one dungeon so you can progress a storyline quest.
Then come back here and tell me how hard a Lancer's life is.
Seriously.
Ryvenn
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#38
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I think OP has some excellent ideas! All of which are easily achievable through glyphs and crystal requirements. Glyphs can provide balance by providing certain buffs to abilities while lowering damage, healing, or threat to achieve a desired diversity within a class.
Ryvick
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#39
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Serosen on 05/18/2012, 09:22 AM - view
It's not a terrible idea, but the push back is not hard to understand. On the one hand, lancers have absolutely zero ability to do anything whatsoever other than tank. By the way, the guy who suggest warriors level as slow as lancers... lawl. Anyway, my point is while your suggestion is a welcome one it would require a great deal of work on the lancer. If a lancer is not tanking (even with a few group buffs or something) he would still be so incredibly useless there'd be no point in tanking him. A warrior is still useful as their dps is not AAA, but it's still good.
All of that aside, I only wanted to make a couple of points. About the mystic tanking, it's just not feasible. You'll end up with one of two situations, the pet is solid, but AI makes it fail or the pet is OP to compensate for the fail AI. Either way makes for a bad situation as you want fights to be complicated and you can't make AI that deals with it w/o being OP.
The other point is I would be concerned all of these support categories and abilities may eventually create a situation where if you do not have x/y/z in your party, well, you're fail. The more buffs, debuffs, group skills, etc, you add to a game the more difficult it is to not reach this result.
This is precisely the reason why I did two things:
1) Suggested alternate roles for classes who seemed to need them
2) Qualified the tanking section of the post with "Warriors and Lancers should always be the first choice in tanking"
Look, I'm not saying on some level your argument is unjustified. But it is extremely biased and you seem to be unwilling to put forth some basic critical thinking and reading comprehension. But then again, it could be my fault. I'll revise and try to be more clear in my post about what I'm proposing.
It's not a terrible idea, but the push back is not hard to understand. On the one hand, lancers have absolutely zero ability to do anything whatsoever other than tank. By the way, the guy who suggest warriors level as slow as lancers... lawl. Anyway, my point is while your suggestion is a welcome one it would require a great deal of work on the lancer. If a lancer is not tanking (even with a few group buffs or something) he would still be so incredibly useless there'd be no point in tanking him. A warrior is still useful as their dps is not AAA, but it's still good.
All of that aside, I only wanted to make a couple of points. About the mystic tanking, it's just not feasible. You'll end up with one of two situations, the pet is solid, but AI makes it fail or the pet is OP to compensate for the fail AI. Either way makes for a bad situation as you want fights to be complicated and you can't make AI that deals with it w/o being OP.
The other point is I would be concerned all of these support categories and abilities may eventually create a situation where if you do not have x/y/z in your party, well, you're fail. The more buffs, debuffs, group skills, etc, you add to a game the more difficult it is to not reach this result.
Ryvick
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#40
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Samyaza on 05/18/2012, 01:02 PM - view
Because dungeon queues have something to do with leveling apparently. Lancers have the worst dps, there is no question about it. Does it take you into the minutes to kill stuff?
RexZShadow on 05/18/2012, 08:15 AMYa know why? Coz we spend the longest time lvling due to our retardaly low dmg. I personally put up with and carry so many [filtered] pug groups at the expanse of my own crystals. And all I see is people making suggestions that would make my lancer almost worthless? Ya I'm pretty pissed.
Ahahaha
Mystics would like a word with you. Try having worse DPS than a Priest, having to wait a long time for queues (45+ on average, sometimes 2hrs), then getting removed from the group when you get in by the Lancer (and everyone else plays along because they don't want to have to wait again). Then when you eventually get a tank that doesn't kick you they suck, or the DPS sucks or something and you end up spending days trying to do one dungeon so you can progress a storyline quest.
Then come back here and tell me how hard a Lancer's life is.
Seriously.
Because dungeon queues have something to do with leveling apparently. Lancers have the worst dps, there is no question about it. Does it take you into the minutes to kill stuff?