Seeing how hard the last dungeons are on hardmode I think most people will be gun shy about joining a pug and stick with mostly premades.

Quote: Veyl on 03/13/2012, 01:01 PM - view

There is, and you can filter by keywords. However, filtering in this manner still makes the tool a bit clunky. If someone doesn't post a group using the exact key word you use or something similar then you won't see their group.

I was running under the assumption that 200+ groups would all be max level groups. I wasn't even considering low level ones. One high pop server can have a LOT of groups searching at the same time.

Quote: StayOnTarget on 03/13/2012, 01:02 PM

Steparu has a video of him doing a level 60 hard mode dungeon with a PuG. PuGing the hardest Tera dungeons is still entirely possible.

I can see most people using the LFD tool under the following circumstances:

1. None of their friends can presently play and it's the person's only time to play before they have stuff to do.
2. No one from their guild needs gear from X hard mode dungeon any more.
3. The person queuing isn't playing at prime time.
4. Said person doesn't want to bother spamming "LFG LFG LFG" in channels for hours when they're a DPS class.

I'm sure lots of people will use the LFD tool for Hard Modes.

Besides... this is how all MMO content goes:

1. New hard dungeon comes out, good groups wipe.
2. Good groups learn encounter and beat it.
3. People who are experienced with the content start queuing in PuGs.
4. PuGs slowly learn content.
5. Everyone knows content and clears it.
6. The hard dungeon is now considered easy and is easily cleared by a PuG.

This is true and you do make a good point Ganaloo. However you should know as well as I, give server communities a bit of time and "Standards" start happening. People would start using a format for the LFG to make sure there groups could be found.

Even more so, added filters/tabs could be applied when creating a LFG Message. [drop down tab]- Quest, Dungeon, Social, Bam, Other.

Over all Tera has a wonderful Tool already functioning, however most people are not educated enough to know what you can do in game.

Example of things people are clueless about and complain on the forums:

LFG Tool: "Y" Key: Billboard Looking for Group to post what your party seeks to do.
Lock-On Tool and Markers: "Q" key: Places hovered target into your Target UI. View all infomation
Quick Messages: "E" Key: Fast messages when combat picks up and for controler users.
Cash for Quick Profession Leveling Quests: Quest Billboard ment for alts "NOT Starter Quests"
Pet Shops: How to set them up

All of these I blame Tera for not interducing these features to starting players, more then half of QQ threads would be eliminated.

Quote: Xeoshades on 03/13/2012, 01:13 PM

I don't see how threads revolving around LFD tools are QQ. All a LFD tool does is what a LFG does, but makes it easier.

When you use a LFG tool you are just as likely to join a group of people you don't know as you are using a LFD tool. LFD just makes the whole process easier. You press one button and it finds a balanced group for you while you farm BAMs or materials.

In fact, a LFG tool promotes people sitting in town either spamming the LFG channel or scrolling through a list of groups, constantly hitting refresh. You can't do much while using this tool. You dedicate all your time to it until you find your group. With the LFD tool you just click a button and it does the rest. You can go outside of town and do whatever it is you feel like doing while the LFD finds you a group. This causes MORE people to go outside. A big complaint is that the LFD kills world PvP, which is not true.

The problem with the LFD tool comes with its implementation. For example, do we port players into the dungeon when a group is found? Do we apply the LFD cross server? A LFG tool could very easily be cross server but they're never implemented that way. So in a way, the LFG tool could be just as "dangerous" as the LFD tool. The difference is, the LFD tool lets you run around town or go outside and farm while it does all the work for you.

The next thing we should really think about is... does porting to a dungeon really kill world PvP? I played WoW since classic vanilla. I was on the servers the day the game came out. I played all the way up until the end of WotlK... and I tried out Cataclysm. I quit cata after they made heroics easy mode.

This is how I feel about the death of world PvP in WoW. World PvP died before the LFD tool was even implemented. It died in Burning Crusade. What caused the death of WoW world PvP in my mind? Shattrah, the neutral city... and flying mounts. Flying mounts being the bigger of the two.

Shattrah:

No one cared about their nation's city anymore. Shattrah was better. So what if your NPCs in Orgrimmar got raided? Just stay in Shattrah and you don't lose anything.


Flying Mounts:

This is very similar to the problem of channel hopping. Which, IMO, is more likely to kill world PvP in Tera than a LFD tool.

In WoW, if you tried to initiate PvP... someone would just get on their flying mount and fly away. There was NOTHING you could do to them once they were in the air besides maybe PoM Pyro them on a Mage and HOPE you 1 shot them. Essentially, once players were in the air, PvP wasn't happening.

The channel system in Tera has a similar effect. Someone coming to gank you? Switch channels. It's not nearly as bad as just being able to fly in the air and get away but it's going to play a contributing role.

Another problem with the flying mounts was you could literally just fly right into a dungeon without ever seeing another player. No one could gank you before you got in the portal. No one could gank you while you farmed. Fly in the sky, land, grab herb, fly away.

WoW world PvP was dead at this point. The LFD tool wasn't even present.


Now... whether or not the LFD destroys the community is up for debate. In vanilla WoW, you had ninja looters and jerks. LOTS of them. There was no LFD tool. People would join raids and ninja items. People would join 5 mans and ninja. Ninjaing was VERY common. VERY VERY common.

WoW's LFD tool actually prevents ninja looting as item rolls become class specific. There was actually more ninja looting in WoW vanilla than there is in Cata. Group loot rules while in queue prevent most ninjaing.

Now on the side of you not needing to "make friends" or anything like that. It's honestly at the discretion of the player. If the player wants to make online friends, they will. They'll talk to people. A LFD tool doesn't prevent player to player communication. Does it lessen it? Well of course, because you don't have to directly message people to get groups. Is this really a bad thing? Well that's entirely subjective. To some they couldn't care less. Obviously to others, they'll put up a big enough stink to start polls and such.


I know I went on a long rant but my whole point is... it's great that there's a LFG tool in game already. But the game will benefit greatly from a LFD one instead. The only problem with a LFD tool is its implementation, and everyone has a different opinion on how it should be implemented. No one is really right. No one can say, "LFD tools will kill the game!" because that's totally incorrect. LFD tools didn't kill WoW, Rift, or SW:TOR and they never will. They actually do the opposite. Implementation is always the important part. What's "killing WoW" (it still has 10 million subscribers so I don't see how it's being killed) is the fact that it's an old game and it's becoming stale. If Rift and SW:TOR die it's because they're trying to build off of an old model that people are bored with. It has nothing to do with the LFD or its implementation.

As far as these QQ threads are concerned. I'm not 100% who you're referring to but I'm assuming it's the people asking for a LFD tool. I'm more on the side of the players that are against it are the ones QQ'ing. They usually just scream, "LFD TOOLS KILL GAMES!", with no basis/support behind it. I've noticed on these forums it's roughly the same 10 people kicking up a stink over it. The vocal minority really. The poll in this thread just goes to prove that further.

you do know, that the LFG Billboard can be used outside of towns and LFG channel is the same. There is no sitting in one place and spamming....


Plus, LFD does not suppot finding groups for bam farming or anyother aspect of the game besides dungeons...

QQ threads. People asking for player lvls and health display, LFD, and other game aspects with many people are simply not educated on.

Quote: Xeoshades on 03/13/2012, 01:42 PM - view

Actually the LFG tool forces you to spend more time sitting around looking. You have to put effort into it and if a group isn't showing up, you have to stop what you're doing, hit refresh, and look through the list again. This promotes someone sitting in town trying to find a group (while spamming the LFG channel as well) over going outside while they're in a queue.

Yes LFD doesn't support finding BAMs and such. So why don't we just have both a LFG and LFD option in game? People will use LFD for dungeon queuing, and the LFG one for misc stuff. No one here's saying, "It's one or the other."

Those QQ threads you're mentioning...

Player levels and health display: Warranted. Why the hell not?
LFD: Warranted as well. The implementation part is really what should be up for debate.

I don't think it's fair for you to say that people asking for things are not "educated" on parts of the game. Some people need to learn about game features, but some know what they're talking about. A prime example is the LFG vs LFD. You feel that the LFG does the job. Others don't agree. Many people asking for the LFD tool KNOW the LFG exists already. They don't need to be educated in any way.

Quote: Xeoshades on 03/13/2012, 01:13 PM - view

You are completely and totally correct; and I agree with everything you list here.

But those people who want LFD are far more vocal, far less informed, and dare I say far younger either in age or maturity. All those things lead to an environment of "demanding" without thinking about the long term effects on the game as a whole.

Sure, they might find it easier to find a group for SM on their little level 27 after the majority of players are at cap. But it will, in the long term, turn Tera into EXACTLY what WoW is, a Battle ground/Dungeon/Raid Lobby simulator with 90% of the community never leaving major cities after they hit level cap.

LFD Cross server systems are Cancerous to OWPvP and Server identity. This is true in every game that has ever used them, if you want LFD as K-tera has it, you want Cata-WoW with somewhat improved combat.

I enjoy cross-server LFD for the simple reason, it makes it easy to find low level groups. Sure it is easy when you are leveling at the launch of a game to find these groups but after a few months it becomes a waiting game of hours.

No matter what your stance is on cross-server LFD, you can not tell me that waiting 3 and half hours for a group to do a low level dungeon is smart from a developer standpoint.

I am not a pugger on my Main characters normally, I run with a set group of people from game to game. On my alts however I use LFG and LFD as much as possible.

[quote name='Altearia' at='03/13/2012, 01:46 PM'][quote name='Xeoshades' at='03/13/2012, 01:13 PM']

LFD Cross server systems are Cancerous to OWPvP and Server identity. This is true in every game that has ever used them, if you want LFD as K-tera has it, you want Cata-WoW with somewhat improved combat.[/quote]

LFD tools do not hurt server identity. Server identity has been, and always will be, determined by the guilds on the server. A largely populated server with the top guilds will always be viewed as a good server. Tichondrius on WoW was viewed as such for the longest time. People would boast about how it was the best PvE server and one of the top PvP servers.

They would boast about how it was the best place to find good PvP partners. Blackrock had this reputation for a while too. All this happened WHILE there was a LFD tool present, LF Battle Grounds, and Arena queue system.

Whether or not these features killed world PvP is up for debate. I strongly believe that if people WANTED world PvP, they'd start world PvP. It seems as though the vast majority of players prefer competitive BG/Arena style PvP as you're less susceptible to being over run by a Zerg. Most players consider getting Zerged in world PvP not being true PvP. Others will disagree. It seems like the majority leans towards arena based combat though. If it didn't, people in WoW and other such MMOs would go outside and attack cities.