PvP Vanarch system- suggestion for revamp

Gtako Profile Options #1

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Yes, not the first post for this topic, but I think the latest changes are a terrible temporary bandage that ruins the selection of Vanarchs, and here's why:

1. 100 points a day. Small guilds that fight organized 5v5/10v10 with their leaders can max out in points in 10 fights. If the bigger guilds falls even for one day behind, it's basically impossible to catch up.

2. Still no fix for sophisticated point trading between guilds.


Fix:

This is a complete revamp of the system, but with tools I presumed is already in place since you see these mechanics elsewhere ingame:

1. Do away with point system, it doesn't work.

Instead, PvP Vanarch should be done by forcing fights between guilds. After all this is a PVP Vanarch. There are two reasons for guilds to dodge PvP right now: 1. They are in the lead after fighting/point trading and don't want to feed other guilds; 2. Enemies have significant number advantage and fighting them is just going to be a mass slaughter.

So how do you fix that? Schedule at least 1 PvP matches between participating guilds, every night, during the period, and 2x for Sat/Sun. The bigger guilds with overwhelming numbers will still have an advantage since they can easily spot the numbers required to fight, while smaller guilds will now be forced to lose points if you don't, and will not be "zerged" if you do.

The matches should be 10v10, 15v15, 20v20 or 25v25. 10s and 15s is more in-line with BG, while 20s and 25s is more in-line with the philosophy that bigger guilds should have an advantage.

If your guild can't even spot 10s or 15s in organized matches for one week, then you have no business in running for Vanarch in the first place.

The score will be decided by Win/Loss ratio, whoever wins the most of their matches by the end of the period wins Vanarchy. Not showing up to designated matches result in loss.

This enforces PvP in a PvP themed Vanarchy, while leveling the playing field to encourage actual PvP.

2. Where to fight?

At first, we thought about the deathmatch square outside Velika, but that's simply too small. Instead, I suggest the glass circle outside North Camp of ZF, the one area just before you head up the ram towards the camp. It is wide enough for bigger fights like 20s. Also the boundary allows for easier moderating.

When matches are fought, only those inside the circle can hit each other, and only those participating in the match are allowed inside the circle. I believe we have system in place that allows for that kind of system check. (Deathmatch system)

Fights are won when all opponents are eliminated.

No outside healing allowed.

Consumables and rezzing should be allow, since this is supposed to mirror owpvp, where advantage goes to more active, bigger guilds, but limit to numbers to even the playing field in that regards.

3. But this doesn't solve the issue with feeding completely? what if one team pretends to fight and throws matches?

It doesn't solve everything, but if we limit the matches between the guilds, ie one match between same guilds every 2 days, or 4-5 matches in total, we limit the effects of the win feeding. Since a province with 5 guilds would be fighting a total of 16 to 20 matches in total, making the feed guild about 25% ahead. (Also the alt guild will probably lose to legitimate guilds, giving them a free win).

In all honesty I really could careless about winning Vanarchy, but at this moment this system does not encourage PvP. Big guilds zerg smaller ones to try to win, smaller ones can't fight because of number differences; smaller guilds organize small fights that caps out easily. Everything just doesn't work at the moment.

EDIT: Also, dropping tag during the 1 week competition should be made impossible. This will limited the alt guilds and main guilds character switching to compete.
Edited by: Gtako 10 months ago
notteemaa Profile Options #2

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I agree on edit, people should not be able to drop guild tag during this event. Dropping guild tag so that your character is out of the race so that you don't have to worry about giving away points is plain stupid.

If you didn't want to pvp, don't register for pvp vanarch.
TwixT Profile Options #3

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I agree about how the latest changes don't really solve the problem. However I disagree on how to fix it. Although a deathwatch tournament would be fun.

A point system can work. A zero sun point system eliminates the need for any kind of cap on points. I am not the first to suggest this, so maybe I will explain why.

*deep breath*

When I get off my phone and able to type it out better I will edit

I can make a point system work, and be fair, but there is some catches to it.

1) It would require that the GvG vanarch know which zone they are fighting for and
2) for guilds enrolled in the vanarch GvG for that zone there will be NO safe zone. Without this, there is no way to remove the incentive to get ahead and simply sit in safe zones. Safe zones are one of the biggest problems with GvG in general. So I would propose that for at least that week in that one zone only, the guilds participating in GvG in that zone, no longer have any safe zones, in that specific area.

now how the point system can work:

Scenario 1

Guild A ( 300 members )
Guild B ( 160 members )
Guild C ( 20 members )

Killing a player in this GvG nets you one point and a death subtracts one point. If a guild has zero points you can kill them all you want ( defend yourself ) but doing so will not net you any points.

Now i see two ways to start the point totals since a death subtract one point and you cant go negative, guilds have to have a starting number. this could be the number of player in teh guild.
Guild A would start with 300 points, guild B 160, and guild C 20. However this gives the advantage to the largest guild and gives them little reason to actually go out and pvp since in this example they would basically win by default.

Instead you take add together the totals from each guild ( 300 + 160 + 20 ) then divide by the number of guilds to give each guild a equal number of points to start. In this example each guild would start with ( 300+160+20) / 3 = 160 points. any remainder resulting from the division is dropped.

At a glance it seems like Guild C (20 members) is being given free points, however they are severely out numbered and the larger guilds can easily trounce most OwPvP they catch them in by sheer numbers.

This stops the abuse of collusion between guilds, and incentives guilds to try and make back points lost by increased participation. Each point gained is not only +1 to your total, it is -1 from the opposing, so a net gain of 2. Making a 40 point lead potentially only 20 kills away from even.

Although this system and honestly the GvG system currently in place still both fail to safe zone abuse. They both allow one guild to get the lead and then keep it by staying in a safe zone, not allowing the other guild a chance. That is why i listed the catch first. I understand that for GvG in general removal of safe zones might cause some grief... hence my catch 1 and 2.

Your guild is fighting for control of the town, of course fighting will spill into the streets! A valid tactic would be to shut down the enemy support lines by ambushing the Pegasus platform, forcing the fight to the borders. Sneaking in through teleport scrolls and party summons. If your in a battle for control of a zone, while in that zone you better be prepared. You dont go to a war zone then stand next to your enemy at the broker......
Edited by: TwixT 10 months ago
Gtako Profile Options #4

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Zero sum works in a perfect world, in this game what you will get is guilds teaming up and take out the obviously favorite, then someone takes the lead and hides in town all day.

We want PvP, don't care who wins Vanarch. If the only way to get PvP is forced, then so be it.

Unless u know of a zero-sum system that will encourage constant pvp.
Gtako Profile Options #5

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So noone else has a problem with this?

I mean yes...chances are eme/bhs won't do anything this drastic...but at least we should make their jobs a little easier with suggestions?
PhillipVIII Profile Options #6

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Keep PvP on their own servers. Make things balance and fix classes, skills like reflect etc. For PvE servers have BG and that's it.

GvG for the most part is NOT welcome on PvE servers. Truth is no one really cares. What is the point to implement? So we can say Tera can do PvPGvG even though most don't give a crap? No one is going to lose sleep if they remove the whole thing.

PvP servers, them folks are more into balance than politics. They PvP anyways regardless.

Prioritize and work it - not just come up with band-aids for bad endgame model. Hire a new creative director.
Arwydd Profile Options #7

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Ariadne Lvl.60
Celestial Hills - Roleplay (PVE)
Human Warrior
Gtako on 07/10/2012, 09:35 AM - view
If your guild can't even spot 10s or 15s in organized matches for one week, then you have no business in running for Vanarch in the first place.

What makes you think this?

My guild, when we won vanarchy of Helkan District last election, had about seven active members. That didn't impede our ability to earn policy points at all; in fact, we were far more successful at it than many of the large guilds on our server and easily farmed up over 30k points in the first two nights of vanarchy. The rest came just a few days later. We also hosted a couple RP events and maintained an IC presence in the province, in keeping with the fact that we're on an RP server.

So yea, I'd call that a success. We decided to bite the bullet this time around, wanting to hold onto Helkan District, and dip our toes into GvG. Alas, we were the only guild who signed up for GvG Vanarchy in Northern Shara. :p

Anyway, my point was that guild size has absolutely nothing to do with a guild's ability to succeed as a vanarch.
Gtako Profile Options #8

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Arwydd on 07/10/2012, 02:19 PM - view
Gtako on 07/10/2012, 09:35 AM
If your guild can't even spot 10s or 15s in organized matches for one week, then you have no business in running for Vanarch in the first place.

What makes you think this?

My guild, when we won vanarchy of Helkan District last election, had about seven active members. That didn't impede our ability to earn policy points at all; in fact, we were far more successful at it than many of the large guilds on our server and easily farmed up over 30k points in the first two nights of vanarchy. The rest came just a few days later. We also hosted a couple RP events and maintained an IC presence in the province, in keeping with the fact that we're on an RP server.

So yea, I'd call that a success. We decided to bite the bullet this time around, wanting to hold onto Helkan District, and dip our toes into GvG. Alas, we were the only guild who signed up for GvG Vanarchy in Northern Shara. :p

Anyway, my point was that guild size has absolutely nothing to do with a guild's ability to succeed as a vanarch.


You did it through voting. Voting is a popularity contest.

Also, what you did with seven ppls is impressive, but are you here to say every 5-10 member guilds can do what you did, or are willing to? Because as of right now, any 5 ppl guild can win Vanarch by doing organized 5v5s with each other guild leader on the team, 10 battles and someone has maxed points.
Edited by: Gtako 10 months ago
Arwydd Profile Options #9

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Ariadne Lvl.60
Celestial Hills - Roleplay (PVE)
Human Warrior
Gtako on 07/10/2012, 02:23 PM - view
Also, what you did with seven ppls is impressive, but are you here to say every 5-10 member guilds can do what you did, or are willing to?

Well, they should be able to. It didn't take much time: a few hours out of our nightly playtime for the first several days of vanarchy. All you need are alts in the level 19-30 range. Form up groups of 2 or more and rake in the policy points by the droves. :)

Because as of right now, any 5 ppl guild can win Vanarch by doing organized 5v5s with each other guild leader on the team, 10 battles and someone has maxed points.

Perhaps, but I'm not so sure that intentionally disadvantaging small guilds (such as the suggestion for 25v25 matches) is a good idea.
MrWolfy Profile Options #10

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Wolfy Lvl.60
Mount Tyrannas (PVP)
Elin Berserker
Gtako on 07/10/2012, 09:35 AM - view
Yes, not the first post for this topic, but I think the latest changes are a terrible temporary bandage that ruins the selection of Vanarchs, and here's why:

1. 100 points a day. Small guilds that fight organized 5v5/10v10 with their leaders can max out in points in 10 fights. If the bigger guilds falls even for one day behind, it's basically impossible to catch up.

2. Still no fix for sophisticated point trading between guilds.


Fix:

This is a complete revamp of the system, but with tools I presumed is already in place since you see these mechanics elsewhere ingame:

1. Do away with point system, it doesn't work.

Instead, PvP Vanarch should be done by forcing fights between guilds. After all this is a PVP Vanarch. There are two reasons for guilds to dodge PvP right now: 1. They are in the lead after fighting/point trading and don't want to feed other guilds; 2. Enemies have significant number advantage and fighting them is just going to be a mass slaughter.

So how do you fix that? Schedule at least 1 PvP matches between participating guilds, every night, during the period, and 2x for Sat/Sun. The bigger guilds with overwhelming numbers will still have an advantage since they can easily spot the numbers required to fight, while smaller guilds will now be forced to lose points if you don't, and will not be "zerged" if you do.

The matches should be 10v10, 15v15, 20v20 or 25v25. 10s and 15s is more in-line with BG, while 20s and 25s is more in-line with the philosophy that bigger guilds should have an advantage.

If your guild can't even spot 10s or 15s in organized matches for one week, then you have no business in running for Vanarch in the first place.

The score will be decided by Win/Loss ratio, whoever wins the most of their matches by the end of the period wins Vanarchy. Not showing up to designated matches result in loss.

This enforces PvP in a PvP themed Vanarchy, while leveling the playing field to encourage actual PvP.

2. Where to fight?

At first, we thought about the deathmatch square outside Velika, but that's simply too small. Instead, I suggest the glass circle outside North Camp of ZF, the one area just before you head up the ram towards the camp. It is wide enough for bigger fights like 20s. Also the boundary allows for easier moderating.

When matches are fought, only those inside the circle can hit each other, and only those participating in the match are allowed inside the circle. I believe we have system in place that allows for that kind of system check. (Deathmatch system)

Fights are won when all opponents are eliminated.

No outside healing allowed.

Consumables and rezzing should be allow, since this is supposed to mirror owpvp, where advantage goes to more active, bigger guilds, but limit to numbers to even the playing field in that regards.

3. But this doesn't solve the issue with feeding completely? what if one team pretends to fight and throws matches?

It doesn't solve everything, but if we limit the matches between the guilds, ie one match between same guilds every 2 days, or 4-5 matches in total, we limit the effects of the win feeding. Since a province with 5 guilds would be fighting a total of 16 to 20 matches in total, making the feed guild about 25% ahead. (Also the alt guild will probably lose to legitimate guilds, giving them a free win).

In all honesty I really could careless about winning Vanarchy, but at this moment this system does not encourage PvP. Big guilds zerg smaller ones to try to win, smaller ones can't fight because of number differences; smaller guilds organize small fights that caps out easily. Everything just doesn't work at the moment.

EDIT: Also, dropping tag during the 1 week competition should be made impossible. This will limited the alt guilds and main guilds character switching to compete.


A.K.A.

Battlegrounds


Yeah.. GVG Vanarch is a temporary fix until they implement those,

Don't Worry