Root design flaw with Tera (and MMO's in general)

Nerelith Profile Options #41

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TotallyNotBroc on 07/19/2012, 09:29 PM - view
Nerelith on 07/19/2012, 08:02 PM


That is how this NON playing segment of the MMO playerbase makes it impossible for the rest of us, to have nice things. They reward companies that feed their need, and the rest of us, end up with crappy games we know are crappy, looking back nostalgically at a time, when game companies knew they had 6 or 8 months to come up with GOOD end game content after the release of an expansion that raised the level cap.

Now if it takes longer than two months of casual play to hit the cap.... players whine, and complain... they QQ.. and bellyache, and threaten to leave...


+1

AC started you off with an apple a dagger and sent you off to play in the sandbox. I don't remember doing quests at all in that game aside from the monthly story line content Turbine released. 126+ levels of choose your own adventure gameplay where you didn't need to LFG/LFD where you never had to wait and could team with anyone and pvp was anywhere at anytime.

Now a days it's a quick theme park tour of instances and zones to hit cap in a few days then "endgame" gear grinding ad nauseum while you wait for the developers to keep up.

Early AC was hard as hell and slow so the devs could easily stay out in front and pump out monthly content. The continual content and sandbox nature kept people constantly engaged. The unforgiving environment fed into the monarchy system and built an amazingly tight community.

Then WoW happens and the great mmo dumbing down wars began. Which brings us to Tera. Cool combat and art style, but a big swing and a miss on just about everything else. Hopefully GW2 will be a step back in the right direction.



I have hopes that it will be. The things I have read and seen on youtube do give me hope. For example, the fact that you can at level 40 go to a lower level zone, and you are scaled down to it, is an amazing idea. It means that you do not go from zone to zone, making previous zones you've outleveled trivial.

I happen to love the combat in Tera. I Like it so much that when I was playing it, I would grab every instance of combat as I went from hub to hub. Combat was not something I avoided, I saught it out, and loved every moment of it. If Combat in Guild wars 2 is half as engaging as in Tera... the fun of the encounters will mean that even at level cap..... the entire game world will still be something I can enjoy.

Dungeons will have replayability, since there will be at least 3 or 4 modes in each dungeon that I have heard of.

The idea that completing certain content does not drop better statted gear but actually drops skins... at first sounds counter-intuitive...but... the whole point is to reward you without putting you on a hamster wheel of a gear grind chase.... Things look promising.

I know that so far it is all potential... and it is possible they can screw it up... but I played Guild Wars 1, for years... and had a blast... I have faith in Anet's accomplishments, they have a solid record on being able to provide content without a monthly. Maybe this will be a step back to the days when you played for fun. And groups of friends could spend a day defeating mobs, for the fun of doing so... gee, what a novel idea... fun,...for fun's sake. One can dream.
Gallus Profile Options #42

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Korilynn on 07/19/2012, 03:02 PM - view

While I agree that classless system is good. I disgaree with those who think they have to roll a class they don't think is fun, just to obtain faster que times.

I prefere DPS, I play a DPS. If that means I have longer que times, that means I just do other fun things while I wait :p Kill things, craft things, check the market, or just plain sit back and chat with people in game.


You miss my point. It's not just about que times, it also causes issues with many other aspects. Because loot drop is RNG from bosses, (instead of a token system) A sorc isn't going to want to group with 2 other sorcs. Because he'll have to fight over loot to get his rare drop.

Then class composition itself. You NEED a tank for a dungeon run. You NEED a healer for a dungeon run. What if I have 4 other friends who play the game with me and they all want to be DPS classes? So we're unable to do dungeons together?

Are you seeing the picture here? Games that highly encourage or force very specific class make ups only causes unwanted issues and create barriers between players.

GW2 has it right, in many aspects, GW2 is made almost completely to "have fun". You don't need specific classes to do content. You don't to worry about what level you are (you get scaled down to the content of the area. You don't have to have a "specific number" of players to do the content (You can do it with 3 players, or you can do it with 20 players.) The content scales everyone to the right level range, and it scales the monsters to the amount of people playing in the area... Then everyone gets their own loot for participation so there isn't fighting over loot.

It's this sort of game we need to see more of. Common sense mechanics that promote fun, not a rigid set of guidlines and limitations that sway people away from what they want to play, or sway people from playing with one another.

It's about time we get back to Fun, and Massive.
Edited by: Gallus 11 months ago - Reason: FTW
hakumen9000 Profile Options #43

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We should play Sword Art Online! The main features are:

No logout button
No magic
No class
No range
All swords
Almost infinite amount of crafting skills.

[Edit]
Edited by: VelikaNightWatch 11 months ago - Reason: Edited for inappropriate comment
Diver Profile Options #44

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Diver Lvl.1
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I've played games with no classes. Only a huge number of power sets that you could mix and match to fit your ideal. Thise have been out for years already. And haven't done all that well.

1) Even more than class based systems these create god mode builds that not even the developers who made them coulee seen coming. Then you see everyone in the godmode build of hopelessly gimp. A tweak to the godmode build trashes peripheral builds that were nit godmode but still hinged around the nerfed issue. No one is happy, everyone wails.

2) Those systems tend to be nub unfriendly. For a new player, or worse a new gamer, all the choices can be overwhelming. Many run around in a gimp state for months. Or become bored and leave.


3) Creating meaningful fun and challenging dungeons where everyone feels they are contributing becomes a bit nightmarish. It generally turns into an easymode free for all. Experienced players and vets get bored and wail.

In summary. Classless systems are no innovation, they have been around for years. They have simply failed to gain traction for whatever reasons. They are as valid as a well developed class system and are no panacea. But for people for whom this system is new it'll be the greatest thing since sliced bread until reality begins to sets in as the months go by.
Edited by: Diver 11 months ago - Reason: Been haunted by Dad's old sayings doesn't mean I have to perpetrate them on innocent bystanders
Keyral Profile Options #45

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Gallus on 07/20/2012, 05:54 AM - view
Korilynn on 07/19/2012, 03:02 PM

While I agree that classless system is good. I disgaree with those who think they have to roll a class they don't think is fun, just to obtain faster que times.

I prefere DPS, I play a DPS. If that means I have longer que times, that means I just do other fun things while I wait :p Kill things, craft things, check the market, or just plain sit back and chat with people in game.


You miss my point. It's not just about que times, it also causes issues with many other aspects. Because loot drop is RNG from bosses, (instead of a token system) A sorc isn't going to want to group with 2 other sorcs. Because he'll have to fight over loot to get his rare drop.

Then class composition itself. You NEED a tank for a dungeon run. You NEED a healer for a dungeon run. What if I have 4 other friends who play the game with me and they all want to be DPS classes? So we're unable to do dungeons together?

Are you seeing the picture here? Games that highly encourage or force very specific class make ups only causes unwanted issues and create barriers between players.

GW2 has it right, in many aspects, GW2 is made almost completely to "have fun". You don't need specific classes to do content. You don't to worry about what level you are (you get scaled down to the content of the area. You don't have to have a "specific number" of players to do the content (You can do it with 3 players, or you can do it with 20 players.) The content scales everyone to the right level range, and it scales the monsters to the amount of people playing in the area... Then everyone gets their own loot for participation so there isn't fighting over loot.

It's this sort of game we need to see more of. Common sense mechanics that promote fun, not a rigid set of guidlines and limitations that sway people away from what they want to play, or sway people from playing with one another.

It's about time we get back to Fun, and Massive.


For someone who seems to love GW so much you sure are posting a bunch on Tera and playing Tera a lot.

MagiHagii Profile Options #46

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Pharys on 07/19/2012, 02:19 PM - view
The root design flaw of Gran Turismo was focusing solely on cars. I like airplanes.
Gran Turismo is bound to fail. Airplane people can't stand it.
If only they would get that beautiful engine and listen to me and add airplanes, their sales would skyrocket but nooooooo. They stick to that failed formula of cars only! LAAAME!


lol love it
Nerelith Profile Options #47

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Gallus on 07/20/2012, 05:54 AM - view
Korilynn on 07/19/2012, 03:02 PM

While I agree that classless system is good. I disgaree with those who think they have to roll a class they don't think is fun, just to obtain faster que times.

I prefere DPS, I play a DPS. If that means I have longer que times, that means I just do other fun things while I wait :p Kill things, craft things, check the market, or just plain sit back and chat with people in game.


You miss my point. It's not just about que times, it also causes issues with many other aspects. Because loot drop is RNG from bosses, (instead of a token system) A sorc isn't going to want to group with 2 other sorcs. Because he'll have to fight over loot to get his rare drop.

Then class composition itself. You NEED a tank for a dungeon run. You NEED a healer for a dungeon run. What if I have 4 other friends who play the game with me and they all want to be DPS classes? So we're unable to do dungeons together?

Are you seeing the picture here? Games that highly encourage or force very specific class make ups only causes unwanted issues and create barriers between players.

GW2 has it right, in many aspects, GW2 is made almost completely to "have fun". You don't need specific classes to do content. You don't to worry about what level you are (you get scaled down to the content of the area. You don't have to have a "specific number" of players to do the content (You can do it with 3 players, or you can do it with 20 players.) The content scales everyone to the right level range, and it scales the monsters to the amount of people playing in the area... Then everyone gets their own loot for participation so there isn't fighting over loot.

It's this sort of game we need to see more of. Common sense mechanics that promote fun, not a rigid set of guidlines and limitations that sway people away from what they want to play, or sway people from playing with one another.

It's about time we get back to Fun, and Massive.


I am downloading the gw2 client as we speak. Beta event starts in six hours. I have to say, when I first heard they were completely stepping away from the trinity system, I was quizzical if it could be made to work.

But I see that it IS a step in the right direction. I played World of Warcraft for years... and the main problem for me was that there was only so much you could do with talents to play your favorite class, outside it's expected role. You could not play a ranger, and heal... you could not play a mage... and tank... for example.

Someone said that getting rid of the trinity system only means that the players will in time...recreate it, because they will seek to fill either a tank role... a healer role... a dps... a CC etc...

But they miss the point. Everyone is responsable for keeping themselves healed. And... Which of those trinity roles they fill is not bound to the class they play. By choosing the correct skills...they can be an engineer that fills the tank role now... and later on... might switch to DPS etc....

Will people still need someone willing to be tank to complete content? I do not know. I have not gotten that far in My research, but... if you need a tank for a dungeon.... It means that this time I tank... next time you tank, and I DPS... next time I do crowd control...etc... with a little communication, understanding, willingness to compromise and " take one for the team." anyone can do anything in spite of which class they chose to play... It is dynamic.

So I agree... maybe the Trinity system has not been completely eliminated, maybe it is such a part of our MMO player psyche that at this point it may never be so...but at least with Guild wars 2, they are trying to make it unbound to the class you choose.

If in Guild Wars 2, you decide you want to be a warrior, and play him as a tank... you have no right to complain later... that was the choice you made to play him that way... with more rigid games... like Tera...WoW... Rift.(Not so much as the other 2...).. you pick a warrior... you're kind of stuck being a meatshield.


Tested and true, comfortable for those that fear stepping out of the box... but... I wholeheartedly agree... we all need to step out of the box from time to time. How do we learn anything new, if we stick only with what we know?
Keyral Profile Options #48

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Nerelith on 07/20/2012, 06:18 AM - view
If in Guild Wars 2, you decide you want to be a warrior, and play him as a tank... you have no right to complain later... that was the choice you made to play him that way... with more rigid games... like Tera...WoW... Rift.(Not so much as the other 2...).. you pick a warrior... you're kind of stuck being a meatshield.


Not sure if you don't understand warrior or you don't understand Tera.

Warrior's are DPS or Meatshield if you don't want to be a meatshield you can be a very very good DPS.
Yassha Profile Options #49

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Gallus on 07/19/2012, 02:43 PM


I'm glad GW2, and a handful of other games, are going back to the MUD / table top DnD days where you played the character that you wanted, and thought was fun, without feeling like you're "gimping" the game.


I have to nitpic your idolization of GW2 here (I'm sure it will also be a great game). The DnD tabletop game is pretty solidly based around specialized classes, so I'm not sure how that fits into being similar to GW2-surely it is more similar to the conventional mmo setup of a balanced team with specialized roles.

I am eager to see how GW2 pans out, but I suspect there will be classes/builds that are wanted in group play- for example ranged on castle defense. Kill the healer first will no doubt become kill such and such first.


Also in regards to the topic in general, while I think braking away from a tank/healer/dps set up has its merits, this very set-up creates interesting group dynamics and strategies. It is not the fundamental flaw of mmos, but a game defining mechanic that millions of players enjoy.

Nor do I think it is intrinsically tied to gear grind. If you take out gear stats from pvp and just give tokens or whatever to buy or craft cosmetically cool gear and add to that a more flexible skill tree system (like in rift for example) I don't see how it factors at all into forcing a gear grind. I can see how a skill based system might mitigate this further but essentially the gear grind is there because of a kind of power inflation.

So OP I think you are partially correct; the gear grind is both the hook and the curse to the mmo genre, however, I don't think the class system is the root cause of the grind.
Nerelith Profile Options #50

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Keyral on 07/20/2012, 06:30 AM - view
Nerelith on 07/20/2012, 06:18 AM
If in Guild Wars 2, you decide you want to be a warrior, and play him as a tank... you have no right to complain later... that was the choice you made to play him that way... with more rigid games... like Tera...WoW... Rift.(Not so much as the other 2...).. you pick a warrior... you're kind of stuck being a meatshield.


Not sure if you don't understand warrior or you don't understand Tera.

Warrior's are DPS or Meatshield if you don't want to be a meatshield you can be a very very good DPS.


You Missed the Point entirely. I was referring to Warrior...generically... as in what in every other class based game is called a warrior. Not In the specific class of warrior in tera.... Notice I started with .." If in Guild Wars 2...." not " if in Tera..."

But let's assume the " warrior" as played in Tera... In Guild Wars 2, you can play your warrior, as a tank...as a DPS.. as crowd control... to do status effects on mobs to debuff mobs...etc....

My point which you missed is.... In Tera if you play a warrior, you are pretty much Bound to play the DPS role.... maybe you can play a tank..if you want, and if the pugs will let you without outo kicking for trying to again, think outside the box.

Since you know the classes in tera so well.... How easy is it to be a really good tank as a warrior in tera? The promise in Guild wars 2, is...that if you have unlocked the skills on your warrior, that will allow you to play as a meat shield ... you can be a tank...if you have unlocked the skills, that allow you do DPS you can DPS....

The SKILLS you've unlocked, and your skill in synergizing them, determine if you can fill a specific role.

here is something I know from having played Guild Wars 1. In Guild wars 1... mages could tank... mages could heal... and while it was not a complete step away from the trinity system, it was the first step. The idea I am discussing is.... with Guild wars 2. If you have the skills...and the skill in usi8ng those skills... you can play any class anyway you wish. If you really wish to play a warrior, as dps, you will find a way, if you wish to play him or her as Tank.... you will find a way, If you wish to use your warrior to apply conditions On mobs...or to crowd control...you will find... Ok, I'm repeating myself...

In games Like Tera.... Not as much.




Edited by: Nerelith 11 months ago