So OP I think you are partially correct; the gear grind is both the hook and the curse to the mmo genre, however, I don't think the class system is the root cause of the grind.

Quote: Yassha on 07/20/2012, 06:47 AM

So OP I think you are partially correct; the gear grind is both the hook and the curse to the mmo genre, however, I don't think the class system is the root cause of the grind.

OP and most of the posters in this thread are just trolls trying to make tera look bad to anyone that comes to the forums. Each and every single post created by these people are all negative hate tera posts with zero positive.

Some have even gone as far to say some of these people don't even play tera just come here to make Tera look bad to everyone else.

Just my 2 cents ignore anyone that starts or end a post with GW2 will be better or is better is is greater yada yada yda

I've played games with no classes. Only a huge number of power sets that you could mix and match to fit your ideal. Thise have been out for years already. And haven't done all that well.

1) Even more than class based systems these create god mode builds that not even the developers who made them coulee seen coming. Then you see everyone in the godmode build of hopelessly gimp. A tweak to the godmode build trashes peripheral builds that were nit godmode but still hinged around the nerfed issue. No one is happy, everyone wails.

2) Those systems tend to be nub unfriendly. For a new player, or worse a new gamer, all the choices can be overwhelming. Many run around in a gimp state for months. Or become bored and leave.


3) Creating meaningful fun and challenging dungeons where everyone feels they are contributing becomes a bit nightmarish. It generally turns into an easymode free for all. Experienced players and vets get bored and wail.

In summary. Classless systems are no innovation, they have been around for years. They have simply failed to gain traction for whatever reasons. They are as valid as a well developed class system and are no panacea. But for people for whom this system is new it'll be the greatest thing since sliced bread until reality begins to sets in as the months go by.

Quote: Diver on 07/20/2012, 06:11 AM

I've played games with no classes. Only a huge number of power sets that you could mix and match to fit your ideal. Thise have been out for years already. And haven't done all that well.

1) Even more than class based systems these create god mode builds that not even the developers who made them coulee seen coming. Then you see everyone in the godmode build of hopelessly gimp. A tweak to the godmode build trashes peripheral builds that were nit godmode but still hinged around the nerfed issue. No one is happy, everyone wails.

2) Those systems tend to be nub unfriendly. For a new player, or worse a new gamer, all the choices can be overwhelming. Many run around in a gimp state for months. Or become bored and leave.


3) Creating meaningful fun and challenging dungeons where everyone feels they are contributing becomes a bit nightmarish. It generally turns into an easymode free for all. Experienced players and vets get bored and wail.

In summary. Classless systems are no innovation, they have been around for years. They have simply failed to gain traction for whatever reasons. They are as valid as a well developed class system and are no panacea. But for people for whom this system is new it'll be the greatest thing since sliced bread until reality begins to sets in as the months go by.

This guy said it best and this is the entire problem.

I honestly feel like Tera's classes were pretty damn amazing: they were unique, varied and each one gave a genuinely different experience.

In lieu of trying to give players total freedom, you're better off making classes as unique as possible and plentiful so that players are more likely to find something they like.

Like Diver said, we've tried this before and either no one has done it right or it just doesn't work.

Quote: Destian on 07/20/2012, 07:08 AM

Quote: Diver on 07/20/2012, 06:11 AM

I've played games with no classes. Only a huge number of power sets that you could mix and match to fit your ideal. Thise have been out for years already. And haven't done all that well.

1) Even more than class based systems these create god mode builds that not even the developers who made them coulee seen coming. Then you see everyone in the godmode build of hopelessly gimp. A tweak to the godmode build trashes peripheral builds that were nit godmode but still hinged around the nerfed issue. No one is happy, everyone wails.

2) Those systems tend to be nub unfriendly. For a new player, or worse a new gamer, all the choices can be overwhelming. Many run around in a gimp state for months. Or become bored and leave.


3) Creating meaningful fun and challenging dungeons where everyone feels they are contributing becomes a bit nightmarish. It generally turns into an easymode free for all. Experienced players and vets get bored and wail.

In summary. Classless systems are no innovation, they have been around for years. They have simply failed to gain traction for whatever reasons. They are as valid as a well developed class system and are no panacea. But for people for whom this system is new it'll be the greatest thing since sliced bread until reality begins to sets in as the months go by.

This guy said it best and this is the entire problem.

I honestly feel like Tera's classes were pretty damn amazing: they were unique, varied and each one gave a genuinely different experience.

In lieu of trying to give players total freedom, you're better off making classes as unique as possible and plentiful so that players are more likely to find something they like.

Like Diver said, we've tried this before and either no one has done it right or it just doesn't work.

Guild Wars 1 did it right for years.

I agree Not many have done it right. That does not mean no one has.

Secondly, just because a system that gives freedom to the informed means the nub as you call them ends up with a sub-par build is not an argument against the game that is trying to give the players the freedom to build the character they wish. That is an argument against the nub, for not doing his homework.

I mean.. a description of each skill...and what it does is provided. So because some players don't bother reading them,...or asking themselves..." How would skill A interact with skill B." that is a problem with the game design?

Fact: Since the appearance of World of Warcraft there are people playing MMO's that do not know how. They only believe they do, because World of Warcraft has dumbed down the Genre for everyone. Now these people demand that ALL games be just as dumbed down. What is sad is, that these are the people that make up a significant portion of the players ( actually these are non-players)... that the game developers need for their games to stay profiteable.

It is hard to produce Shakespear when everyone is demanding "Run, Spot, Run".

please do not derail the thread. Maybe that is what you want...derail it so the Mods can come and lock it.



The subject is...Class based vs Skill based systems...and whether Class based systems just because they are class based and for no other reason, may be a detriment to the MMO genre.



Since that is the debate we are having it is tough to have that debate if the ONLY game we refer to is Tera. I have seen this with the members of the Tera defence league when it comes to Guild Wars 2. The Moment the game is mentioned, even if it is releant, attempts are made to cast aspersions on the people that bring the game up.



The relevance of mentioning Guild wars 2, in a thread that asks How good or bad the class based system is, should be obvious.



Tera sticks to the trinity system. And while Guild wars 2, does have seperate and distinct classes it tries to do away with the trinity system, by giving ALL classes the tools to fill any need within that system... so a warrior can apply status effects or debuff,....with a warrior flavor....



The necromancer can do the same but again...with a necromancer flavor...so that while both the warrior, and the necromancer may be able to fill the need for a tank...both will do so in VERY different ways, and it will feel different.



The reason that we mention Guild wars 2 in this thread is because it is an example of a game that is trying to step away from the trinity system, while Tera is a game tha embraces it.



I do not believe I have seen anyone here say " tera sucks because it has the trinity system." I believe that the Tera Defence Lague has to paint it as such, because that is what they see when someone says..' guild wars 2...." whatever. One almost imagines that mentioning Guild wars 2, is Like a red cape to a bull. The thread is...." Class based systems..." Tera is being discussed.. it is a trinity based system.... Guild wars is also being discussed because it is stepping away from the trinity based system, while still embracing the class based system.



Relax.

Guild Wars 1 did it right for years.



I agree Not many have done it right. That does not mean no one has.