Stop confusing Hard with Tedious

JesterXL7 Profile Options #1

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Seriously. People always [filtered] about how things are to "Easy" these days. Oh its too easy to obtain a mount, oh its to easy to do this or that. Many of you are mistaking difficulty with tediousness. Having to farm for hours for gold for a mount isn't hard, its tedious. Having to solo some elite bad [filtered] mother [filtered]in monster that requires me to stay on my toes and play my class like Charlie Daniels plays a fiddle to get my mount is difficult. This game keeps promoting this true action combat, all about skill thing, and nearly every forum post I see tends to agree with it, so I really hope it lives up to it. That said, for the love of video games, quite demanding stupid tedious, grindy crap in place of things that actually require said skill. Also, its a video game, realistically they can only make it so hard, so stop expecting to master video games like you would master foot ball, basket ball, or martial arts.

Sorry this is a little ranty, but Im so sick of hearing this. I just want to play a game that is a hell of a lot of fun, and is a genuine challenge, and not a battle of wills to spend hours doing some monotonous task to get anything worth getting.
Slubber Profile Options #2

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Zdravko Lvl.60
Mount Tyrannas (PVP)
Aman Warrior
No, haven't you heard, you are expected to sit at a slot machine all day, everyday, waiting for awesome luck to make you the richest and most powerful person in the world.

Edited by: Slubber about 2 years ago
Tasho Profile Options #3

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`Anything` becomes tedious if your tolerance for repetition is low... and honestly, it's feeling like people's patience and tolerance levels are just getting lower and lower with each year, to the point where it's unreasonable and unnatural, especially after these grade-school level MMOs the market has been saturated with as of late.

I'm not saying that I want to spend `hours` just getting my first mount or something, but I sure as hell don't want them to just hand it to me without any effort at all... If they take too many more steps toward `reducing tedium` it's going to remove any sense of reward from the game... and nothing you do will end up feeling like it has any real impact on how you've spent your time in the game.

After all, where is the luxury in an reward if everybody is expected to have it because it's too easy to obtain?
qw12po09 Profile Options #4

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Demise Lvl.60
Mount Tyrannas (PVP)
High Elf Mystic
Tasho on 04/02/2012, 01:13 AM - view
After all, where is the luxury in an reward if everybody is expected to have it because it's too easy to obtain?


And what is the point of obtaining something when you could obtain a similar thing in a faster and more enjoyable manner?

You people need to stop. Gamers these days this, gamers these days that. It's not gamers these days, it's games. Compared to 10 years ago, there are a hell of a lot more games, especially MMOs. Tera is a fun game, but it's not the only game to offer action combat, or team PvP or whatever draws you to it. If a job has you work 10 hours for the same reward you'd obtain working another job for 2 hours, you are not going to take the 10 hours job. Very few people are masochistic that way.

But what if both jobs took 5 hours to pay the same, and one was doing whatever you enjoy working on the most, the other being flipping burgers for a fast food chain? Obviously, you'd do the job you like more.

The game 'economy' so to speak has moved from offering very few 'jobs', so you'd have to put up with months long grinds if you wanted to competitively play an MMO, to a wide variety of 'jobs', many of which take very little effort to reach your objectives (clearing PvE content, gearing up for PvP, etc).

Why am I going on and on with the job analogy? Because grinding for a lot of people can become a second job, something they grudgingly do every day for a reward a month down the line. It's not fun, it's not exciting, but it needs to be done to reach objective x. So, ultimately, the solution to people quitting your job for another, easier job is to... not make it be a job at all.

There's a thin balance in the amount of fun something provides before it turns from enjoyment to a job. Fighting an insanely difficult boss? That's probably going to be fun for any serious gamer, the kind Tera wants to appeal to. Killing that boss for the 20 milionth time to obtain some item? Likely by that point, nobody can see it as anything other than a horrible, tedious chore.

If two games offer the same boss encounter, but one gives you said item after an average of 5 kills, compared to 1000 kills for the second one? You'll probably play the 5 kills game, because killing a boss 5 times should be enough to master the encounter without going into tedium. Thus, the first game becomes a challenge, and the second game becomes a job.

All content needs to be balanced this way. Nobody likes easy fights. Nobody likes free gear. No gamer worth his salt does. But nobody wants to take a second job either. Take the example of a mount. Sure, nobody will value it coming in a 'congratulations on reaching level 30, here's your mount' box. But nobody wants to kill 10 thousand monsters which offer no challenge, or whose challenge has been worn down by repetition.

Keep rare, legendary weapons. Keep insanely difficult to get mounts. Keep rewards for people doing feats of concentration, reactions and skill. Don't make it feel like a job. That's the only way you can succeed in today's MMO market. Unfortunately many companies don't want to invest the man hours of research, development and balancing necessary to offer gamers a hard, challenging but non-repetitive experience. It's either giving items away for free or putting them at the end of incredibly tedious grinds or RNG.

I understand that many of you want to be unique, have gear and items that very few people manage to, and be recognised as having acheived something noteworthy. And many of you want to just get some objectives out of the way and move on to doing something you enjoy more, gearing up for PvP through PvE content you are not enjoying being an example. But instead of trying to separate gamers into the 'lazy' and 'persistent' camps, work on getting it through to EME and Bluehole that what we all ultimately want is the game's content to be hard, challenging and fun. If those 3 attributes can be maintained for the entire scope of the game's content, nothing else will matter.
Nesse Profile Options #5

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You pretty much nailed it Tasho.

More and more it seems that people want to be max level with top end gear and put in as little work as possible, and gaming companies keep giving into this. Ive never really understood this. Anytime you have to put any amount of work into a game, someone throws out the word grind. Be it a level grind, a gear grind or a faction grind. What some fail to realize is that these "grinds" are called game play.

Game designers need to stop catering to the ez mode crowd. That grind everyone complains about is the carrot on the stick that keeps a good amount of people playing.

People complained about how long it takes to grind out to max level in any game. So they make leveling easier. Complain about gear grinds and they add ways to get gear easier. Either with vendors or specific drops for party make up. I never understood this.

Hardcore gamers will always find a way to get to the cap as fast a possible, and to acquire the gear they are after. I may be one of a handful, but I would love to see this trend of making games easier reversed. A game that takes more then 2 weeks of hardcore playing to cap. Back to random drops, where you might have to raid for months just to get that piece you were after. In my opinion thats far more rewarding than the handout system many games have adopted lately.

My opinion is my own, and I understand that many wont agree with it, but when players run out of things to work for, it usually results in a cancelled sub and that player is looking for the next big thing.
Jicken Profile Options #6

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The combat in this game doesnt bores you like other MMO, so grinding is always fun most will agree on this.
qw12po09 Profile Options #7

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Demise Lvl.60
Mount Tyrannas (PVP)
High Elf Mystic
Nesse on 04/02/2012, 01:58 AM - view
You pretty much nailed it Tasho.

More and more it seems that people want to be max level with top end gear and put in as little work as possible, and gaming companies keep giving into this. Ive never really understood this. Anytime you have to put any amount of work into a game, someone throws out the word grind. Be it a level grind, a gear grind or a faction grind. What some fail to realize is that these "grinds" are called game play.

Game designers need to stop catering to the ez mode crowd. That grind everyone complains about is the carrot on the stick that keeps a good amount of people playing.

People complained about how long it takes to grind out to max level in any game. So they make leveling easier. Complain about gear grinds and they add ways to get gear easier. Either with vendors or specific drops for party make up. I never understood this.

Hardcore gamers will always find a way to get to the cap as fast a possible, and to acquire the gear they are after. I may be one of a handful, but I would love to see this trend of making games easier reversed. A game that takes more then 2 weeks of hardcore playing to cap. Back to random drops, where you might have to raid for months just to get that piece you were after. In my opinion thats far more rewarding than the handout system many games have adopted lately.

My opinion is my own, and I understand that many wont agree with it, but when players run out of things to work for, it usually results in a cancelled sub and that player is looking for the next big thing.


You'll be surprised, but what people really want is to have fun. Why does that often involve getting the best and brightest gear and being done with it all? Because often times, that's damn all games can offer.

If I wanted to grind months for an item, or subject myself to RNG hell, I'd play good old EQ and Lineage some more. Try to get it through that what Tera is attempting now is to take gamers away from other games. Yes, take. Gamers are not spawned at the end of rainbows for every little game coming along to have some. Gamers are a limited commodity that games have to compete for.

The most lazy people in this equation are the developers. They think giving us a corridor with 10000 monsters and telling us to go through them all before receiving a reward is enough to keep their game afloat. Should it come as a surprise that it isn't? And when people realize the game isn't providing anything they expected, they leave. What do they leave for? Another game. Probably a better one. Much like gamers don't spawn, they also don't despawn. They are there as long as you can keep them interested.

Developers these days are in a pathetic little bid war. They make carbon copy games, each giving their own game a tiny little bit of individualism. Oh, our game has better graphics than the rest! Our game's combat system is more fun! Our game has pink unicorns for everyone to capture! No sorry, one trick poneys can't stay afloat anymore and the MMOs failing left and right are proving it.

Back to our little grind issue. What makes players call something a grind? That something being tedious, repetitive and unexciting. Take killing 10000 monsters in a corridor. That's grind. Now what if the corridor had amazing graphics and a great combat system? Still grind. How about we toss some resource nodes in our corridor and a bit of random world pvp? It's getting there but it's still a grind. Now what if our corridor becomes an expansive area, with places to explore, secrets to uncover for those who enjoy going through every little nook and cranny. What if it has changing weather, storms that force you to find a shelter or die, tides that reveal secret caves. What if during the process of killing 10 thousand monsters an enormous rock falls from the sky, killing everyone in the blast area and releasing a horde of monsters on the survivors? What if overcoming that horde of monsters would greatly reward the people who managed to pull it off? What if exploring every little corner of the now expansive corridor would let you chance upon rare materials or unique pets you can tame?

Well, in that case, nobody that went through the 10 thousand monsters would call it a grind. They'd call it a blast.

I'm sorry, but such are my expectations as a gamer in the year 2012. If games want me, they better show me something I haven't seen before. If all they can offer is a grind, there are and have been thousands of other games where I can do the same thing.

TL;DR the solution to people calling your content grind is not to make it take less effort, it's to make it offer more fun for the same amount of effort. If that takes more effort to create than your company can afford, you can always reconsider being a game developer. Not everyone in this world can or should develop games.
Egophile Profile Options #8

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I'm sorta in the middle here... I have never been a fan of super fast leveling and easy mode gameplay... On the other hand though, I agree that many confuse tedium with challenge...

There can be a happy medium... That "carrot on a stick" can get pretty boring to keep following around in many games... In fact, in a lot of games it feels more like a Hamster wheel... Which causes many players to quit as well... (never want that "carrot" to be too obvious...)

I prefer my challenge to be in the form of gameplay... Combat requiring skill, tactics and such... Collecting things (collections,crafting materials etc..) can be rewarding and enjoyable too, but repetitive boring gameplay disguised as challenge, just don't cut it for most folks after years of the same transparent Carrots on sticks...

If a game is fun enough, with enough real challenge... Then there is little to no need for "carrots on sticks" to keep folks playing...
Woshie Profile Options #9

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I agree and I don't. I don't think Tedious is fun and I don't think it is hard. But on the same token I see why it exists. People need to have worked for something for it to feel like it has any value and feel accomplishment. I personally love hard dungeons. But most people will argue that it is no fun when 90+% of the population will be unable to complete it.

So you are in no mans land. How do you give something worth to players and then enable even the mouth breathers with pants on their head to have a shot at doing it? Grinding, give a simple and easy but repetitive tasks to consume their game time and have them still feel they are working towards something. To enable them to do content that they can't do until they out gear it drastically.

Also to the op what is a genuine challenge to you? Who says that what is challenging to you I wouldn't find way to easy or vice versa?
Edited by: Woshie about 2 years ago
Rakusu Profile Options #10

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Tiraelina Lvl.43
Tempest Reach (PVE)
Elin Lancer
Everyone against "grind" of any form will be singing a different tune when they realize what happens when an MMO doesn't have people playing it regularly. Being that they have little reason to log in outside of doing x daily task for some random tokens.

Some of you need to realize that those "korean grindfests" don't have being max level as the goal. It's a social experience in a (formerly) social genre. When things take longer to do there will be more people doing them thus more people to play with. When an MMO can be "beaten" in a month for most people, where does that leave the player population?
Edited by: Rakusu about 2 years ago