Stop confusing Hard with Tedious

VenomPhoenix Profile Options #101

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I want them to be based on skill like an FPS.



lol, cant tell if serious....


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Do people really find it fun doing tedious grinds just to get stuff?


Yes, provided that it is optional content.



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Most of us are not saying take out gear progression or other such things that take time. The point we are making is that tedious tasks do not require skill, they require repetitive nonsense, like sitting around for something to spawn. I think even people who claim to enjoy this, wouldn't give it a second thought if they didn't have to do it anymore. What we are saying is to make the game more genuinely challenging, don't make it take longer. Like I said above, we don't want all our stuff handed to us so we can just go off and kill stuff. We want obtaining gear to involve boss fights that are more challenging, that require me to do more than press a big button as I said earlier in this thread. I want to walk away from a raid having not gotten a single piece of gear, but still having had a lot of fun killing stuff.

This is why I quit WoW. After doing raid finder for a couple of weeks, I finally realized I wasn't there for the combat, I wasn't there to kill something. I was there for gear and that was it. When I didn't get gear I was pissed, I spent an hour and a half doing this raid and have nothing to show for it. When you look at FPS games, say, counter-strike, I think it shows how fun gameplay hooks people in and keeps them playing. I have been playing counter-strike since I was in fifth grade, I am now 23. This is how much fun I have playing that game. It is certainly an FPS with no treadmill. There are no ranks, no unlocks, no progress that I make that carries over to the next map. So why have I played it for so long? Its fun.

Now like I have said a bunch of times already, Im not asking for the removal of the gear treadmill, or anything else. It is fun getting new gear, seeing your abilities hit for more, and it is certainly a mode of progression for PVE, if you want to get through the next, harder raid, you have to get better gear. My point is that the journey, killing those bosses, should be the main hook, not the gear. If you are playing this game just to get new gear, and that works for you, awesome. In my MMO A for Awesome, you can still do that, but you will have so much more fun doing it, because the boss fights will be thrilling and fun, and a real challenge. Same with PVP, no PVE encounter will ever compare to the amount of skill and work it takes to best other players. While I think gear should also play a part here, It should be less so than with PVE content. Again though, the combat with other players should be the hook, not the new gear you get when you succeed. Getting gear from PVP is certainly a reward, as it should be. It is a way of saying, awesome job killing other players and completing objectives, you get this new gear because you have developed skill and bested others. It should not be, Awesome job showing up to the party, here is some gear for attendance.


I find it funny how often you use the word "we" as if speaking for some silent majority.

I think you only skim read my posts too. I never said combat shouldnt be fun... i was sticking to the original point that tediousness IS hard to sit through.

You go on and on and on and on about wanting the game to be fun... but it is, i dont see why you are getting so upset. I never said combat should be made easier, i never said that people should be forced to sit through tedium to get a reward they HAVE to get, i said the option should be there for people who do want to. I do want to camp rare spawns, i do want to farm for months to max out my crafting, and i dont want every aspect of the game trivialised and made shorter for those with short attention spans.

This whole concept you have of "BUT THE COMBAT, THINK OF THE COMBAT" was something no one was arguing against. Nobody said the whole game should be boring, but there were people saying that the whole game should be a cake walk done in minimal time if you have skill. Like i said, this is actually counter intuitive. The last thing you want is for the best players to hit the level of things and be done with it.

I would be one. I found large chunks of TERA incredibly easy. I said repeatedly that i hoped the dungeons got harder later on because the whole PvE experience was waaaay to simple as it is.

I recognised the need for it to draw people in though.

If you want the game to reward combat skill, i am not going to argue, but it does, so thats moot. If you are going to say that the game should reward ONLY combat skill, then i will.

Every game needs hooks. And if you want to catch a larger audience, you need more hooks.
Noxxious Profile Options #102

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Tasho on 04/02/2012, 01:13 AM - view
`Anything` becomes tedious if your tolerance for repetition is low...
Quote for truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This guy said it all! We don't need 11 pages! LOL This says it all XD!!!
JesterXL7 Profile Options #103

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When I say we, i mean the people in this thread who agree with me and have said so. I'm not saying the game isn't fun, but I constantly see people calling games EZmode because they don't have tedious grinds in them, and that is my point. We shouldn't be asking for more tedious grindy content, we should be asking for challenging content.

My post was more about player mentality when it comes to this topic than it is about the actual content in Tera or any other game. Also yes, FPS games take skill. Some more than others, I admit, but still.

In many MMO's, if you have better gear, you win hands down, which is something I think rests on a fine line. Talking strictly PVP, I want gear based on how well I perform both as a team player and an individual. I want (I will defer to WoW terms here because its what I am most familiar with) Honor points based on my killing of other players, healing of my team mates, and completion of objectives, not for just showing up. If I kill more players I should get more honor. Reward players for doing well and using strategy. If me and a healer go around for the duration of the battleground undefeated, we should get more honor just for that. Reward honor for being part of a kill, but reward more for the killing blow. However there is a catch here, if I am late to to the PVP scene in this type of system, I am going to have a lot harder time killing other players who have way better gear if it attributes to much. However if it doesn't contribute a reasonable amount, its going to feel all for naught.

In the end Im not really asking for elimination of, "The Grind." What I want is for it to be fun and challenging along the way. I think they can come up with fun, combat oriented, grindy things to do, like farming gold or mats or whatever.
VenomPhoenix Profile Options #104

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JesterXL7 on 04/02/2012, 07:50 PM - view
I want (I will defer to WoW terms here because its what I am most familiar with) Honor points based on my killing of other players, healing of my team mates, and completion of objectives, not for just showing up. If I kill more players I should get more honor.


Stopped reading after this. You dont want grind, but you want one of the most horrible systems ever established in MMOs in TERA?

The honour system in WoW basically simplifies to this:

Group up and zerg a group, hitting as many people as you can to get honour from when the mass dps of the group brings them down.


I am conviced you just have an axe to grind due to some misconception that levelling is hard and you should be able to just gear up through combat skill alone. No matter what you think, a successful formula of MMOs has ALWAYS been customer retention. Games need ways to keep people playing, and this can only be achieved though new content, or making people redo current content. Without time sinks, people do everything, get bored and leave.

What you really want is hard end game content, but name me a single person who said they wanted easy end game content...

You are confusing grinding elements of the game with the end game difficulty. You can have BOTH.

The best part is this...

If you truly are so damn good at this game and blow everyone out fo the water with your 1337 5k!115, then you will be able to farm gold much faster than anyone else. Tada, combat skill is rewarded!

TERA needs to have grinds, it needs to have difficult components, and it needs variety if EME ever wants it to have a large audience.

Stripping away one of the most important customer retention methods will impact on TERAs playerbase population.

EDIT:

I just notied this:


I think they can come up with fun, combat oriented, grindy things to do, like farming gold or mats or whatever.


Seriously? So what is stopping you from farming gold and buying whatever you need?

I cannot even begin to get my head around the huge amounts of hypocrisy.
Edited by: VenomPhoenix about 1 year ago
HTakara82 Profile Options #105

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I have an idea, EME, create a server where you have to grind 1000+ mobs to get a level up. And lets see how fast these servers die out.
VenomPhoenix Profile Options #106

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HTakara82 on 04/02/2012, 09:03 PM - view
I have an idea, EME, create a server where you have to grind 1000+ mobs to get a level up. And lets see how fast these servers die out.


Yay for straw men!

lets make a server where you start at 60 with the best gear and see how long it lasts too!
HTakara82 Profile Options #107

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VenomPhoenix on 04/02/2012, 09:13 PM - view
HTakara82 on 04/02/2012, 09:03 PM
I have an idea, EME, create a server where you have to grind 1000+ mobs to get a level up. And lets see how fast these servers die out.


Yay for straw men!

lets make a server where you start at 60 with the best gear and see how long it lasts too!


It'll last a lot longer than you think. It's why Private Servers with boosted xp rates are so popular.
VenomPhoenix Profile Options #108

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HTakara82 on 04/02/2012, 09:14 PM - view
VenomPhoenix on 04/02/2012, 09:13 PM
HTakara82 on 04/02/2012, 09:03 PM
I have an idea, EME, create a server where you have to grind 1000+ mobs to get a level up. And lets see how fast these servers die out.


Yay for straw men!

lets make a server where you start at 60 with the best gear and see how long it lasts too!


It'll last a lot longer than you think. It's why Private Servers with boosted xp rates are so popular.


They suuure do bazel. They suuuure do.
diode Profile Options #109

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Reposted from CBT4 area (seeing as it's doubtful anyone will see it there)

Talking about how your quest log always seems to be full of grey quests, why that's a problem, and how gameplay actually stands to be improved by reducing XP rewards.

diode
Oh quantity doesn't equal quality, for sure, and I'll be the last to argue that the experience in terms of enjoyment from level 1 - 20 isn't dull in it's current state. But the whole "grey quest" problem is very real, and it's actually compounding the problem via significantly reducing the challenge of PvE combat a lot of the quests are based on. Unexciting combat encounters just aren't fun. That's something I think we can all agree on.

It's a complex issue that needs to be attacked from more than one angle (and they're already actively trying to make the mobs more difficult in that level bracket), but the gameplay experience actually stands to be improved by reducing the XP rate. This may sound counterintuitive initially, but it boils down to the the fact that by reducing XP rewards, players are more likely to be fighting mobs closer to their level (which by default makes them more of a challenge). Sure, you can say "well just ignore grey quests and only do the ones matching your level!", but in reality, most wont do that. They'll just roll into town, grab all the quests, head out into the wilderness and start killing everything with an exclamation above their heads. Then they'll go to the next place. "Oh look, all these quests are grey. Oh well, they're newer than the grey quests I've already got". Off they go, tra-la-la.

There's the other benefits aswell; it's making MUCH better use of the content that is already in the game (better bang for buck for the devs), and of course players wont be running out of things to do quite so quickly.
JesterXL7 Profile Options #110

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VenomPhoenix on 04/02/2012, 08:54 PM - view
JesterXL7 on 04/02/2012, 07:50 PM
I want (I will defer to WoW terms here because its what I am most familiar with) Honor points based on my killing of other players, healing of my team mates, and completion of objectives, not for just showing up. If I kill more players I should get more honor.


Stopped reading after this. You dont want grind, but you want one of the most horrible systems ever established in MMOs in TERA?

The honour system in WoW basically simplifies to this:

Group up and zerg a group, hitting as many people as you can to get honour from when the mass dps of the group brings them down.


I am conviced you just have an axe to grind due to some misconception that levelling is hard and you should be able to just gear up through combat skill alone. No matter what you think, a successful formula of MMOs has ALWAYS been customer retention. Games need ways to keep people playing, and this can only be achieved though new content, or making people redo current content. Without time sinks, people do everything, get bored and leave.

What you really want is hard end game content, but name me a single person who said they wanted easy end game content...

You are confusing grinding elements of the game with the end game difficulty. You can have BOTH.

The best part is this...

If you truly are so damn good at this game and blow everyone out fo the water with your 1337 5k!115, then you will be able to farm gold much faster than anyone else. Tada, combat skill is rewarded!

TERA needs to have grinds, it needs to have difficult components, and it needs variety if EME ever wants it to have a large audience.

Stripping away one of the most important customer retention methods will impact on TERAs playerbase population.

EDIT:

I just notied this:


I think they can come up with fun, combat oriented, grindy things to do, like farming gold or mats or whatever.


Seriously? So what is stopping you from farming gold and buying whatever you need?

I cannot even begin to get my head around the huge amounts of hypocrisy.


Whoa bro, step back. You keep coming at me and all I'm doing is trying to have a debate. Stop attacking me.

I don't want WoW's honor system, I plainly stated I was only using WoW terms and WoW as a reference because it is the game I know best. Second, all I'm trying to say here is that I acknowledge MMO's are all about investments into characters, they take time, that's cool. All I want in an MMO is to not have to do boring, repetitive, tedious tasks. I don't wall all my gear in one run of a raid, I want a raid that is fun and challenging so that when I come back the following weeks I still have fun and a challenge fighting the bosses and not just drifting through it while watching a tv show on my second monitor to get gear.

On the PVP point, I don't want to go into a BG or PVP in general and get facerolled because I haven't yet put in the time and effort to get PVP gear, if there even is such a thing in Tera. But I don't want my gear to be meaningless either. I acknowledge its a fine line, and it would be awesome, (wishful thinking here I'm sure), if a game developer could walk that line and make an awesome MMO.

I'm drawn to Tera because this game seems to have a lot of what I personally, and it seems some others from the posts in this thread, are looking for.

I'm not asking for zero time sinks, I'm asking for fun challenging ones.

I don't know how much more I can clarify my point.