Stop confusing Hard with Tedious

bentcurve Profile Options #111

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I feel like you must have not spent much time in older mmo's. Those "tedious" task also help build the community as you usually brought other people along to do them. Also, it makes things more special when only you and a few others have something, vs. half the world.

To use an example you might be more familiar with. In vanilla WoW, which was very grind heavy btw, when you saw someone in Naxx gear it meant something. So few guilds had the time and resources to get in there that is was an accomplishment when you did it. It showed organization and community as much as an ability to push the right button and not stand in fire. The gates of AQ is another great example. The grind for the resources on that was terrible, but I was part of the two guilds that opened the gates on our server and that feeling was awesome. Everyone on the server knew it was mostly us, and that counts for something.

Yes, it is just time. You are right. However, it is also about dedication to the online community and world you are supposed to be a part of, and this is the part I think new mmo's fail at. Everyone wants to make everything soo casual friendly that it kills the spirit of the community.

Tedious, sure, but still important. Also, and I will repeat this because it bears repeating, a huge part of the MMO genre. To those that say "the genre has changed" I would ask where? If you mean TOR or current WoW, sure, I guess, but both of those games are sacks of [filtered] for it. Rift? Sure, I guess, but it is also not very good and leaking subs faster than a bucket with no bottom. So show me a great, amazing MMO that got rid of the grind, of the tedious task. Show me this great innovation that changed the Genre.

All you can point to is the success of WoW, which was full of grinds until WotLK. How many reps in BC? How many tiers? You needed what to make a flask?

I guess crafting is just a tedious grind too? It seems to me that you want to strip the genre of its DEFINING characteristic and make it something else. Maybe LOL or DOTA is more your flavor, but I do not think MMORPG's are
SkyeDread Profile Options #112

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People are just so spoiled, if the game is too hard when the dev's make it easier for them those same people complain that it's too easy so WTF. People can't just play the game the way it is and be happy, but instead focus their attention on something to be unhappy with.

For example how armor looks; for lots of people this is a game breaker if the armor isn't the way they want it to look like, and they just ignore every other aspect of the game for this one reason alone.

I've played hardcore MMO's all the way down to WoW and I enjoyed all of them (Yes I even enjoyed WoW at one time.) And even though there were things I did not like I still had fun. I didn't spend hours everyday complaining about how the armor looks crappy.

Whatever happened to the old rule if you don't like it don't play it? No one is forcing anyone to play a game they don't like so if you don't like the game because it's too hard, too easy or how it looks there are hundreds of other MMO's out there that are willing to cater to your play style.

I find it funny that in other countries there aren't as many cry babies as there are in America I wonder why that is...
Edited by: SkyeDread about 1 year ago
Waiden Profile Options #113

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JesterXL7 on 04/02/2012, 05:12 PM - view


Wow, I don't want MMO's to play like an FPS, I want them to be based on skill like an FPS. Do people really find it fun doing tedious grinds just to get stuff? I like gear progression and character development as much as the next guy, but I don't enjoy spending countless hours doing some boring tedious task for it. I don't see how what we are talking about here won't improve the overall MMO experience for everyone. Maybe instead of attacking me you could enlighten me as to why boring, tedious grinds have to be in an MMO or else its not an MMO. Im not saying take out gear progression, professions, exploration, or other things people enjoy doing just because. Obviously MMO's are always time investments, whether it be investing time to get better and the time to takes just to get through a raid, but Id rather invest my time in something fun and challenging than something boring and tedious.



I find it shocking how quick people are to defend the boring, tediousness of most current MMOs.



Also, I'm not in a frat, I don't play Halo, and Im not trying to turn Tera into an FPS. I'm trying to argue that it would be better off if the core parts of MMO's (Exploration, Gear Progression, Crafting, Leveling, PVP, Dungeons, Raids, etc.) were focused around fun challenging content, rather than boring, tedious content. I am doing this in part by drawing parallels, and using analogies to the FPS genre, where there aren't any treadmills, or carrots on sticks, yet people still play them day after day, year after year. Are you really happy with the current status of the genre?



None of us are saying that we should all be given max level characters with appropriate gear and whatnot and sent out to PVP or do raids, we do enjoy the leveling experience, we enjoy running dungeons and raids to get gear, we enjoy investing time to develop our characters, we would just like it to be more challenge, less repetitive tasking. We would like boss fights to be more fun and challenging, switch up the mechanics every fight. Some serious AI development could really revolutionize the genre here.



tbh YES. Thing I enjoy in MMORPGs the most is hunting the gear (farming dungeons, raids, pvp, etc) less hunting means for me less time playing the game. When I max my character with best gear possible out there I usually quit playing. Creating an alt is not an option, mmorpg should be about playing main character for months, not weeks ... So yes, when more time is required to obtain the best gear, to level up the more subscription i buy

If I dont want to hunt gear and spend time grinding, farming it .. why should I play MMORPG? I would play Dota 2, sc2, etc ...
Edited by: Waiden about 1 year ago
JesterXL7 Profile Options #114

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bentcurve on 04/02/2012, 10:29 PM - view
I feel like you must have not spent much time in older mmo's. Those "tedious" task also help build the community as you usually brought other people along to do them. Also, it makes things more special when only you and a few others have something, vs. half the world.

To use an example you might be more familiar with. In vanilla WoW, which was very grind heavy btw, when you saw someone in Naxx gear it meant something. So few guilds had the time and resources to get in there that is was an accomplishment when you did it. It showed organization and community as much as an ability to push the right button and not stand in fire. The gates of AQ is another great example. The grind for the resources on that was terrible, but I was part of the two guilds that opened the gates on our server and that feeling was awesome. Everyone on the server knew it was mostly us, and that counts for something.

Yes, it is just time. You are right. However, it is also about dedication to the online community and world you are supposed to be a part of, and this is the part I think new mmo's fail at. Everyone wants to make everything soo casual friendly that it kills the spirit of the community.

Tedious, sure, but still important. Also, and I will repeat this because it bears repeating, a huge part of the MMO genre. To those that say "the genre has changed" I would ask where? If you mean TOR or current WoW, sure, I guess, but both of those games are sacks of [filtered] for it. Rift? Sure, I guess, but it is also not very good and leaking subs faster than a bucket with no bottom. So show me a great, amazing MMO that got rid of the grind, of the tedious task. Show me this great innovation that changed the Genre.

All you can point to is the success of WoW, which was full of grinds until WotLK. How many reps in BC? How many tiers? You needed what to make a flask?

I guess crafting is just a tedious grind too? It seems to me that you want to strip the genre of its DEFINING characteristic and make it something else. Maybe LOL or DOTA is more your flavor, but I do not think MMORPG's are


When have I pointed to the success of WoW and said Tera should emulate it? Where did I say I want everything handed to me with no grind or any work? What I am saying, for what feels like the hundredth time, is that I want the methods by which we level our characters, obtain our gear, craft items, to be fun and challenging, rather than tedious and boring.

Perfect example, back in classic wow, when I went to get my first epic mount, guess how I did it? I farmed Air elementals in Silithus for weeks to get Essences of Air to sell on the AH. How much fun does that sound? Repetitively killing easy to kill monsters for something they drop to sell on the auction house. It wasn't fun, it sucked, I hated every minute of it. Not saying it wasn't ultimately worth it to get the epic mount, just saying that I would rather have had to do something that took a little more skill and a lot less tedium. Look at the fangs of our fathers quest line. Certain parts require you to solo certain NPC's using all your rogue abilities. I haven't done it so I don't quite know how hard it is, but that is more the kind of thing I want to see in MMO's. You pretty much get everything you need for that quest line just from doing the raid itself, yes it takes TIME to do it. But i don't have to go farm some stupid mob for weeks to get it done, I have to go with my guild and raid, which is fun, and if I am doing hard modes, challenging.

Here is another example from Cataclysm WoW. Leatherworking. My gosh I have been trying to get this to 525 forever, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I have no orange recipes, and to get one, I have to have 10 heavy savage leather, which means I need to get 40-50 savage leather, (can't remember the conversion rate off the top of my head). But then, once I do that, I have to go and get another 10 heavy savage leather just to make ONE item. Thank goodness they implemented the darkmoon faire +5 to profession quests, which if I was still playing I would still have three months to get to 525, but Id rather wait to get 525 than spend hours on end farming things to kill so I can skin them for leather. Whats worse, is its actually not really worth it to get 525 LW, just another pointless, tedious grind. Alchemy is a much better example of how profession leveling should be. Its relatively painless, and you can easily out level it if you level herbalism along the way from the time you can learn professions.

I don't understand how I am not making my point clear to everyone. I'm down for time investments, I don't want to play for a month and have everything I could possibly get. I want those time investments to be fun and challenging things, not tedious and boring things. It just seems that you guys are all content, or worse, and even more confusing, HAPPY to do these boring repetitive tasks for hours and hours, over weeks if not months just to get a mount or other such nonsense.

Egophile Profile Options #115

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VenomPhoenix on 04/02/2012, 05:05 PM - view
Egophile on 04/02/2012, 01:41 PM

Edited for shortness:

Actually I never said It wasn't difficult... I said it wasn't challenging...

Also I said There is a place for collecting stuff and other achievements.... But I do not consider those things tedious or boring as long as there is other fun gameplay to be had while I am doing those things...

but the days of pointless time sinks and transparent "carrots on sticks" should go the way of the Dodo in my view...

As I said.. If a game is fun.. It don't need that stuff... In my not so humble opinion...


You missed a huge part of my point. The most difficult part of doing an *optional* tedious task is the very fact that it is tedious. You are putting yourself through something that can be frustrating for the point of a reward. This is a different kind fo difficulty, a discipline based one (how much torture can you sit through? the more you can the more you will be rewarded).

Tediousness introduces a different kind of difficulty, one that requires time, dedication and discipline on the persons behalf. Not everyone enjoys it, and i fully understand that. Nobody should be forced to camp Aeonaxx in WoW, but the option should be there for those that do enjoy that kind of difficulty.

That said, there is a definite need for SOME kind of "grind" in any MMO. An MMO that takes 2 hours to hit level cap requires more "grinding" than one that requires only one hour. Both are stupidly short, but one requires more effort than the other. Same thing goes for gear.

Skill should push the odds into your favour, it should not be the only determinate. This is especially true in TERA. Where is the fun in only having to do each dungeon ocne for your gear? Where is the achievement in levelling up crafting, for example, in a single day?

What is being suggested by large numbers of people is counter intuitive - If all the most skilled players can brute force their way to the end game.... then there wil be nothing left for them to do, so they leave, and suddenly the world is filled with unskilled nubs who make LFG sessions infuriating.

Even the most skilled players should surely realise the need for repetitive tasks at the end game. Otherwise there will honestly be nothing to do, and TERA will effectively be an elaborate online chat system.


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Actually I never said It wasn't difficult... I said it wasn't challenging... In which I meant in a good way... I suppose we are talking semantics to some degree ...

Cant really speak to wow much since no matter how many times I tried it, (starting at launch and last time being a year and a half ago or so) I never could enjoy it and found it extremely boring....

Also I said There is a place for collecting stuff and other achievements.... But I do not consider those things tedious or boring as long as there is other fun gameplay to be had while I am doing those things... I love rare loot and collections and taking my time enjoying actual content... (this is why I don't like Quest Hub leveling) I in no way want easy mode... (that's the main reason I didn't dig WoW) I just don't think doing the same thing over and over or waiting arround for hours is fun... (It is lazy game design in my view... I want actual challenge to my skill as a player)

My points were geared toward ridiculously rare spawns (note that I do think many games including TERA take this to far to the opposite extreme by making mobs re-spawn damn near instantly) and other needless time sinks... Or De-leveling whether it be your CHR or items' enchantments...

""My main point being, all MMOs are time sinks by nature... but the days of pointless time sinks and transparent "carrots on sticks" should go the way of the Dodo in my view...""

As I said.. If a game is fun.. It don't need that stuff... In my not so humble opinion...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ UN-EDITED PREVIOUS POST^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Actually in the section that I put double quotes around, that you edited out.... I specifically said that "all MMOs are by nature time-sinks"... I just guess we disagree what is rewarding...

Also... Never once did I say anything to the effect of wanting to brute force my way to the end... Or getting rid of rare drops etc.. In fact I specifically said, (In another part you edited out) I don't like rushing to the end... And that "I love rare loot and collections and taking my time enjoying actual content"... Maybe that is what some want, but certainly not me... It seems you missed most of my point in truth...

I do see your point, and feel that some folks are attacking your opinion a bit harshly... (Typical forum reading/talking past each other I suspect)

I just disagree that tedious tasks are rewarding in the end... Or necessary, for that matter... You obviously do not agree, and that is fine... I am always for options as a rule, to appease various types of players... But I just think they can make achieving rare, hard to get items and such, fun and requiring "Skill" instead of "Patience"...

Really though, I think I have said all I had to say on the subject... To each their own I guess...
Edited by: Egophile about 1 year ago
Yassha Profile Options #116

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Maybe there is room here for a new server type: PVP, PVE, RP, and TEDIOUS.

Then I can just say "the TEDIOUS server is that way>>>>>>>" to all the bright ideas for increasing grind.
Nesse Profile Options #117

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Yassha, you dont get it do you? And its not just you. MMOs ARE time sinks. They are designed that way so they can keep players around for that monthly sub. I dont understand why so many people are against extending the life of a game they want to play. And why? Because it requires time? Even if you dont have a lot of time to play (as is a common argument for people so against "grinding") how does work against you? That should actually be a benefit as you'll have a much longer game life.

As for games requiring skill? Pssh. Its button mashing and I dont see how this game is really any different than the next outside of replacing tab targeting with a reticle.

MMOs are traditionally questing, killing, leveling and gear. Thats pretty much it in its rawest form. There are only so many ways you can present a quest. Killing will always be killing. That leaves leveling and gear. The longer it takes the average player to cap, the more likely there will be new content ready to be pushed out. Again, this shouldnt be a bad thing.

I also think end game play should be a series of gear checks. And raiding should go back to being a puzzle to solve rather than having an add on give you step by step instructions on what you need to do to not die.

You know what I dont find fun? Throwing money at new MMOs because hitting cap and gearing out only takes a month or two. I want a game that I'll be able to play for a long time. One that will allow me to work on my main for months.

And for the argument that everyone pays the same amount, they should all have access to the same content.... newsflash. You do have access to it, you just have to put in the time to get there.
Angrynixon Profile Options #118

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Yassha on 04/03/2012, 02:08 AM - view
Maybe there is room here for a new server type: PVP, PVE, RP, and TEDIOUS.



Then I can just say "the TEDIOUS server is that way>>>>>>>" to all the bright ideas for increasing grind.


Good idea.

on TEDIOUS server, the XP gap between levels starts at 1 million and increases exponentially.

ProximityAlert Profile Options #119

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I said it before in this thread, I'm going to keep saying it until you morons understand.

EME did NOT lower the grind necessary for +12 weapons. They said themselves that the cost would be roughly the same.
lycrates Profile Options #120

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bentcurve on 04/02/2012, 10:29 PM - view
I feel like you must have not spent much time in older mmo's. Those "tedious" task also help build the community as you usually brought other people along to do them. Also, it makes things more special when only you and a few others have something, vs. half the world.

To use an example you might be more familiar with. In vanilla WoW, which was very grind heavy btw, when you saw someone in Naxx gear it meant something. So few guilds had the time and resources to get in there that is was an accomplishment when you did it. It showed organization and community as much as an ability to push the right button and not stand in fire. The gates of AQ is another great example. The grind for the resources on that was terrible, but I was part of the two guilds that opened the gates on our server and that feeling was awesome. Everyone on the server knew it was mostly us, and that counts for something.

Yes, it is just time. You are right. However, it is also about dedication to the online community and world you are supposed to be a part of, and this is the part I think new mmo's fail at. Everyone wants to make everything soo casual friendly that it kills the spirit of the community.

Tedious, sure, but still important. Also, and I will repeat this because it bears repeating, a huge part of the MMO genre. To those that say "the genre has changed" I would ask where? If you mean TOR or current WoW, sure, I guess, but both of those games are sacks of [filtered] for it. Rift? Sure, I guess, but it is also not very good and leaking subs faster than a bucket with no bottom. So show me a great, amazing MMO that got rid of the grind, of the tedious task. Show me this great innovation that changed the Genre.

All you can point to is the success of WoW, which was full of grinds until WotLK. How many reps in BC? How many tiers? You needed what to make a flask?

I guess crafting is just a tedious grind too? It seems to me that you want to strip the genre of its DEFINING characteristic and make it something else. Maybe LOL or DOTA is more your flavor, but I do not think MMORPG's are


There are better solutions to memorable content than just grind. I think this (very long) article explains everything you complain about pretty well.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4736886/Dev_Watercooler_-_Mists_of_Pandaria_Looting_Explained-3_27_2012#blog