This thread is silly and illustrates what's wrong with the post-WoW MMORPG era.

1. "MMORPGs require gear progression".

False: MMORPGs require character development and customization. This can come from various sources. RAs, RRs, AAs, the list goes on.

2. "Gear progression equates to stat progression".

False: Several games include a wide variety of gear at the same "tier" and otherwise have few, if any, "tiers" of gear. This is for cosmetic and rarity purposes. Players in these games have demonstrated a repeated commitment to acquiring rare / better-looking gear, regardless of the stats.

3. "MMORPGs require grind".

False: The term "grind" refers to a repetitive activity that has no inherent value, and instead functions as a timesink in order to obtain a separate, distinct, and non-intuitive reward. For example, killing 1,000 rabbits for a rabbit charm of +100 is a "grind". The link between killing 1,000 rabbits and acquisition of a miscellaneous piece of gear is artificial at best.

4. "Repetitive activities = grind".

False: An activity that has inherent value is not a grind. For example, when playing counterstrike, is the activity of moving, shooting, and killing another player a grind? No -- even though you must repeat these activities ad nauseam for a win, these activities have inherent "fun" value. As a result, we may eventually characterize it as "repetitive", or "stale", but it is never a grind. As a non-FPS example, the activity of PvP in DAOC, UO, SB, AC, was almost never a grind. In Warhammer, PvP was mostly not a grind.

False: A repetitive activity that is non-mandatory is not a grind. It becomes a farm. For example, if killing 1,000 rabbits rewards you the title "Rabbit Slayer", then that is typically considered a farm. This is because players treat titles as "optional" or "non-mandatory" for gameplay. As a result, people do not treat the activity as a grind.

5. "MMOs aren't MMOs without gear/grind".

False: MMORPG = MMO RPG. MMO = massively multiplayer. It defines a game where you have "lots" of other players. "Lots" equates to an order of magnitude more than normal "multiplayer games", which traditionally have up to 32 simultaneous players. MMOs feature hundreds or thousands of players that can interact in the same world. RPG = role-playing game. RPGs are defined by a method of gameplay that relies on a story and character development. This development has traditionally been simulated by "stats" to quantifiably define a character. Nowhere in the definition of an MMORPG do you automatically include grind, or gear inflation, etc. Gear and grinding have become mainstream due to EQ-WoW and the replication of their successful business model.

Edit: To be clear, for the WoWtards that have a difficulty comprehending: WoW's is not the only successful model. It is only the largest to date. Ironically, the reason for WoW's success aren't even related to the topic of grinding or gear progression. Its longevity is mostly due to its stellar UI, UI customization, responsive controls, and breadth of content (hard not to have after almost 10 years of development), low graphical requirements (you begin to appreciate how bad the average gamers' PC is when you stare at a LoL loading screen and wonder how the hell people can load a full minute slower than you when your PC is 4 years old), solid art quality, etc.

Gear/grind is simply the framework WoW used to anchor its game, and it's effective, if not healthy. Kind of like Burger King.

When games first came out they were about the fun factor based on pen and paper games such as dnd. But people wanted to see newer and more evolved games and features over the years. But the sad fact that the rng created by dnd and games like it back then is still present in 2012 and will always be part of mmos in some way or another. It was just a way to things a little less boring on paper. But companies kept expanding on it as a way to keep people playing longer and longer. Waiting on x drop, x spawn, x mat.

When you make a game easier to appeal to more people you also make it harder vs the rng system. With no item degridation or end result being the destruction of the item you also need to make it harder for everyone to have one. You cant just have anyone and everyone running around with one. So you got to turn on the trusty number generator to save the day. Then make level ranges so you only got 1 run at that item while you can still do the 1000 runs it takes to get one before you outlevel the dungeon. Throw some timers on it, make it a rare spawn that youll see every 10 runs, throw in a place holder, make its drop rate non existant and call it a day.

But what people fail to realize is gaming is a business created by companies. And yes mmo's do play out like virtual jobs. You dont work you dont get paid for it. They wont even fire you for skipping out on your job either cause your paying them to work. They have entry level positions, manager positions, ect. They all come with sliding pays scales as well depending on what game mechanic department you work in. The more overtime you put in you might even get a small bonus. Hooray for workaholics!

But you also cannot forget that most of these asian games are based on their culture as well. They are a sweat shop emulator in the sense that youll work all day for practically nothing isnt that fun and enjoyable? So the game more or less plays out like some warped form of a production line. X amount of time per task, X amount of cash for said task, but you wont see a couple of things.

You wont see fords crafting robots with a 90% fail rate making cars, You wont see fords robots proc crafting mustangs out of focuses. You wont see a bum collecting cans all day to go craft himself aluminum siding. You wont see your little brother being the pvp god of the getto. You wont see people out taming rare exclusive lion mounts in africa. You wont see your next door neighbor epic questing for a bugatti veyron. Lifes not a fun whimsical place and neither is gaming for that matter.

Its meant to see how much torture youll subject yourself to before you crack. Its meant to see how long youll sit there in one spot just to try your luck at the slots for that chance at the jackpot that so many others failed to get. Its about doing everything better then the next person just because you can.

So either do your job so stfu and sit back down and keep crying about it to the other complainers who will listen.

Quote: Nesse on 04/03/2012, 06:13 AM - view

Quote: Redangel on 04/03/2012, 07:12 AM

TEDIOUS server is that way>>>>>>>

Quote: JesterXL7 - view


WOOOOOOOOO slow downnnnnnn, when did Charlie Daniels start playing the Fiddle?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote: Castle on 04/03/2012, 05:56 PM - view

I think he is referring to the song "The devil went down to Georgia".

Wait a minute, did I just see WoW blamed for BOTH people thinking that gear should be handed to them AND for people thinking that a game can't exist without a grind?

Holy Christ, do you WoW haters ever listen to yourselves? How about to each other?!

Quote: Calypso on 04/03/2012, 06:22 PM - view

Didnt you hear? If its not exactly like WoW, then as much as we hate WoW, we should complain until it becomes a carbon copy of it!

Quote: Yassha on 04/03/2012, 03:44 PM - view

You just keep repeating that Yassha. As I have already stated, I want a game thats going to be around longer than 2 months.

You are more than welcome to go play some hello kitty adventures if you want an easy game you dont have to put any time into to feel like you are at the top of the heap.

As I have already stated once. You just dont get it.

Quote: Nesse on 04/03/2012, 11:41 PM - view

Hello Kitty Adventures is a bigger grind than kTera ever was, maybe you should play that?

Quote: Woshie on 04/02/2012, 03:07 AM - view
I think if the customer/gamer ultimately demands a faster/easier/more streamlined path to end-game content and rewards then the developers are pretty much required to provide it. I myself am a fan of LFR in WOW and am looking forward to "story mode" raiding in SWTOR. I would go as far even to say that raiding on the easiest level should provide the exact same rewards as the hardest level. I can't see how the rate at which other people acquire loot because they chose to play on easier settings should impact on other players who chose to play it harder.

Because I will also be time-poor with an active social life and many facebook friends I will probably only be able to play TERA for maybe 30 minutes an evening - if TERA could someone make the game able to be consumed in bite-sized amounts, similar to the pick up and play for 10 minutes style game play of many iPhone games - games like this is clearly the way of the future.