This game is being ruined by the random factor

Malpherian Profile Options #71

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Nisu on 06/08/2012, 02:12 PM - view
I never said I didn't want a grind. I like a grind, otherwise there is nothing left to do in game.

I played Lineage2 for five years, I better like a grind. I still never made it to the level cap or ever had the best gear.

I don't understand what you want out of the game, get the best of everything right away.. and then what? Just PvP?

IMO the entire point of an MMO is grinding with friends. Even PvP boils down to grinding points doesn't it?


Try playing EvE Online. All Creativity, No end game (or rather never ending end game), Infinite possibilities, and NO GRIND. because there is always something to do that is different then what you did 2 minuets ago, and anyone can play the game (To it's fullest) whether they be a 10 year old Veteran, or a 1 hour old noob.

it is player driven and open.

The only things skills do in EvE, is make you do what yu already do, better and more efficiently, and allow access to bigger ships, special mods, and weapons which unlike other games, How good they are depends on YOUR "skill" as a player to fly them, rather then what stats they have.

THAT is an MMO that has been around 10 years and will STILL be around 50 years from now.

Other MMO's need to start taking notes.

The "grind" most MMO's is there money sink.
In EvE the money sink is the content, Loss is real Loss as far as items ships and loot goes. And can kill anyone, and steal their stuff and even resale it for your own profit.
There is absolutely NO RNG. In EvE online and it continually year after year gets the Game of the Year award.

EvE is successful because the game is based on "Reality Principals" . Rather then Random chance.
Edited by: Malpherian 11 months ago
Nisu Profile Options #72

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No grind in EVE Online?:
EVE Online is a game that's often lauded by players as having eliminated the grind present in other MMOs. However, it's clear that EVE still has a large amount of repetitive gameplay that can be considered grind. While nothing is forcing you to run missions over and over again or mine for hours on end, those areas of gameplay where heavy grind exists are very heavily used. When given a universe in which they don't have to grind, why then do so many players actively seek out something repetitive to grind on?

quoted from an article by Brendan Drain
Malpherian Profile Options #73

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Nisu on 06/08/2012, 02:33 PM - view
No grind in EVE Online?:
EVE Online is a game that's often lauded by players as having eliminated the grind present in other MMOs. However, it's clear that EVE still has a large amount of repetitive gameplay that can be considered grind. While nothing is forcing you to run missions over and over again or mine for hours on end, those areas of gameplay where heavy grind exists are very heavily used. When given a universe in which they don't have to grind, why then do so many players actively seek out something repetitive to grind on?

quoted from an article by Brendan Drain


Thats just it, It's not "grinding" if it is not "Forced" because you can still do everything without needing that extra shiny 3 billion ISK Module. And you can get that 3 billion ISK without grinding if you really want it, there are 100's of ways to do it with NO GRIND.

Other MMO's to get the ability to beat that end game boss, you ahve to grind to get that Endgame set, or you will NEVER beat that end game boss. Therfore you are FORCED to grind to achieve it.

The difference is that in EvE if your grinding it's because YOU WANT to grind. (And there are lots of reasons people do this which have absolutely nothing to do with trying to beat or achieve anything).

Where as, in other MMO's you don't have the choice not to, if you want to play the harder areas or be competitive in pvp., you either do the grind in whatever form, Or quit the game because you can't play it unless you grind what you need to grind to move to the next level or area.

This is the sole reason EvE will outlive, Wow, Aion, Swtor, Terra and any other game that comes out from now until CCP decides to offline the servers or the world ends. Because you do things because you "want" to. Not because the game mechanics and level requirements say you "Have" to in order to play.
Edited by: Malpherian 11 months ago
Kred3k Profile Options #74

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Thundercat on 06/08/2012, 01:55 PM - view
@kredek and terabeta

if you're going to attack an argument, use logically sound arguments, not "that's just silly" or "there are plenty of other games... i justcant name any in specific" corny little fallacies.


Please tell me that you're joking...

The guy who said this:

Thundercat on 06/08/2012, 12:53 PM

because it prevents every scrub on the planet from having the best of the best.


Wants "logically sound arguments"?

"Can't name any specifics"? How about you read the thread, because I gave plenty of examples on how successful games handle gear progression without frustrating their playerbase and incentivize dedication and commitment (aka "hard work" by MMO standards).

Want gold sinks? Armour repairs, soul healing, buying runes, consumables, potions, mounts, vanity items, fluff, respec costs. If you honestly think that the primary motivation behind an RNG based enchanting system is removing gold, then you're completely clueless. The primary motivation behind RNG enchanting is to ARTIFICIALLY extend the duration of the endgame.

Good games gate their content by designing encounters that take players a long time to complete, both from a mechanics and gear perspective. Bad/uninspired games make you play the lotto.
Edited by: Kred3k 11 months ago
zeruel1223 Profile Options #75

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Nisu on 06/08/2012, 02:33 PM - view
No grind in EVE Online?:
EVE Online is a game that's often lauded by players as having eliminated the grind present in other MMOs. However, it's clear that EVE still has a large amount of repetitive gameplay that can be considered grind. While nothing is forcing you to run missions over and over again or mine for hours on end, those areas of gameplay where heavy grind exists are very heavily used. When given a universe in which they don't have to grind, why then do so many players actively seek out something repetitive to grind on?

quoted from an article by Brendan Drain

With EVE, players choosing to grind is more about finding one's niche and specializing to maximize your return while minimizing time or effort. You dont have to "grind this then grind that then grind that". It's more like "you can do any of these different things, and stop doing any of them when you feel like it, and continually receive rewards while doing them".

edit: No RNG? What are you talking about? What are officer or faction modules then?
Edited by: zeruel1223 11 months ago
jeepguy Profile Options #76

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Thundercat on 06/08/2012, 01:55 PM - view
@kredek and terabeta

if you're going to attack an argument, use logically sound arguments, not "that's just silly" or "there are plenty of other games... i justcant name any in specific" corny little fallacies.


Your first post in this thread was to make a sweeping generalization without substance.

Take the beam out of your own eye.
Malpherian Profile Options #77

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zeruel1223 on 06/08/2012, 02:50 PM - view
Nisu on 06/08/2012, 02:33 PM
No grind in EVE Online?:
EVE Online is a game that's often lauded by players as having eliminated the grind present in other MMOs. However, it's clear that EVE still has a large amount of repetitive gameplay that can be considered grind. While nothing is forcing you to run missions over and over again or mine for hours on end, those areas of gameplay where heavy grind exists are very heavily used. When given a universe in which they don't have to grind, why then do so many players actively seek out something repetitive to grind on?

quoted from an article by Brendan Drain

With EVE, players choosing to grind is more about finding one's niche and specializing to maximize your return while minimizing time or effort. You dont have to "grind this then grind that then grind that". It's more like "you can do any of these different things, and stop doing any of them when you feel like it, and continually receive rewards while doing them".

edit: No RNG? What are you talking about? What are officer or faction modules then?


Well I don't really count Officer spawns as RNG because they are not player depreciated or caused, and there not actually random. Theres a formula that says 1 out of "a number" which spawn WILL be an officer spawn. Which is Not RNG since it isn't actually random.

With eve its more about circumstances for something to spawn special wise ratehr then random, but it sems random to players because the devs have a program that continually cycles set peramiters, so while not random you can't make them spawn by taking certain actions in a patern. (If that makes sense).
Edited by: Malpherian 11 months ago
Ryvick Profile Options #78

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Kred3k on 06/08/2012, 02:50 PM - view
/snip


I really don't care whether something is RNG driven or token driven; however, WoW, which was a very well made game (I wasn't a big fan, but after the first 6 months, it was a well made game) started using a token system instead of random drops. The reason was so everyone progressed the same amount every run instead of basing it on a RNG system. The thing is, there's no difference between the two systems on an aggregate level. They're both to extend the amount of time you have to spend in dungeons to get the loot you want. The only difference is the per person time spent can fluctuate greatly (depending on the RNG) in one situation where other is just a straight forward grind.

Simple fact, you're either playing a lotto based grind or a flat grind. You're grinding either way - that's what MMO's are (PvE side I mean).
Udoelerhard Profile Options #79

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Welch on 06/07/2012, 11:11 PM - view

Some games (like Rift) make their raids very challenging so the progression is determined by the community's ability to figure out the mechanics and work as an organized group (aka skill based progression with a gear gating component that supplements it).

What? Rift had challenging content? /disagree
Edited by: Udoelerhard 11 months ago
Nisu Profile Options #80

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Malpherian on 06/08/2012, 02:39 PM - view
[Where as, in other MMO's you don't have the choice not to, if you want to play the harder areas or be competitive in pvp., you either do the grind in whatever form, Or quit the game because you can't play it unless you grind what you need to grind to move to the next level or area.


You can be competitive in PvP without the 3 billion ISK module? You can do the hardest things ingame at a total noob? What is the point of getting said module then? What do you gain by playing EvE?