Wait...having to corpse run to a safe zone so you can respawn with all your loot? Wtf happened with that? When I played, you had to go get your corpse with all your loot on it or hire a Necromancer to summon it requiring an expensive casket to use as a reagent. Not go to some other zone to spawn it. Like the time our power went out while doing Juggs in Sebilis, died past the door...you know, the one you need a rogue to picklock. Not too easy to get as a naked Warrior. But that was part of the game and part of it that made it exciting.
I agree. Having death actually mean something was fun. I remember dying several times on a corpse run, finally getting all of my corpses piled up and hiring a cleric to rez them all to get some exp back.
Sure it could be a pain, but it added to the adventure of going deep into a dungeon. It made the items you got while adventuring there feel even more valuable.
Not having a penalty when you die in mmos since then has definitely taken away some of the fun for me.
In GW2 you don't even die, you just fade from color to black and white.
As long as another player comes by and clicks on you with tab targeting, you're right back in the action.
OMG that game is going to be so COOL... cough I mean CARE BEAR....
Listen, not only will I compete in this argument, but I will win it.
Highly unlikely.
You know how many of the "Problems" that exist in an MMO gaming community and enviroment can be solved with a harsher ruleset?
Every one of them.
Bullying? - Hate to break it to you, but when you act like a tool bag in a game that requires grouping to succeed, with no cross - server LFD, people realize that they have to respect others, or they will get a bad reputation, and quite possibly black-balled from getting groups.
Don't start with something like 'hate to break it to you' -- implying that you're about to impart something totally new -- then say the same thing any WoW player who has played more than a few years knows is bull. You can't get a community to blacklist -anyone-. 'Back in the day', maybe. Back in the day when not everyone had acccess to an internet connection. You had exclusivity that doesn't exist anymore. Now you have a huge number of internet players whose response to, say, a loot ninja is 'So? Don't pug.' or 'Quit snitching' or 'Snitches get stitches'. Your days of community as a concept are over, and no amount of wishing is bringing it back ~until something is done about the current internet mindset~.
Teamplay / Assisting / Patience -
This is absolutley essential in a harsher ruleset. When over-zealous DPS like to pull aggro from tanks, because they want to "Top the DPS Charts" and it causes wipes, the Community Holds you responsible! Loss of experience really makes people mad. What is the result? People learn to assist and control aggro. It becomes what it supposed to be. More about the We, less about Me.
Again...forced reliance doesn't make for a better experience when the group you're forcing isn't already banking on it. The MMO's of yore were populated with a metric ton of tabletop gamers. Now, those of us who remember pre-3.0 D&D are an ever-dwindling number in MMO's. We knew back then what it was to rely on each other because there weren't any 'super builds' that the current tabletop generation is familiar with. There weren't one-man shows. You can no more force them to play nicely together as you can force someone not to optimize in this week's Pathfinder game. Go on. Read the tabletop forums if you don't already and you'll see the ~exact same metric~ at work. It has nothing to do with the designers and everything to do with the attitude.
When you enter a group setting in a PuG situation - there is a level of courtesy and responsibility, as well as understanding of your limits, role - based on the possibility of facing harsh game consequences for repeated mistakes.
There should be an expectation of courtesy. In principle, there should be one at McDonald's also. But there seldom is. Look at how people treat waiters. Talk about a group I'd never want to anger, the people who serve your food! But you'd be downright amazed at how people treat wait staff if you aren't familiar. The movie Waiting wasn't popular because it had an all-star cast, after all.
If you are a tank, and that annoying rogue that likes to go stealth and "Off tank" a mob on your pull - making life on your healer difficult healing 2 people instead of 1, and it cause wipes and experience loss for everyone, you become black-balled and struggle to get groups.
You may 'struggle' occasionally, from rare time to rare time, but again...getting a group anytime is a struggle without an LFD. You're not really bestowing any punishment. Furthermore, it lends itself to a one-mistake-and-done mentality that cuts off huge portions of the playerbase, thereby ending their subscriptions and killing your game.
[These are just a couple of simple truths about Harsher rulesets. The population falls in line to class/role expectations. The population falls in line with an acceptable level of behavior and an acceptable level of error.
I think you'd like DDO. You should go play it. You can find all the things there that you seem to want. The top guilds are the True Believers in your way. And believe me, you don't want to mess up once. Or pick the wrong skill back at level 3 before you knew how to play (and don't bother with guides, they're misleading or downright wrong in most cases). Go post on their forums, see how long you last. I've never met a more insufferable group of elitists at the top levels than I have in DDO.
What harsher rulesets you actually experience a more dynamic level of fun - without all the BS that currently accompanies and burdens MMO's today in the name of "Casual Friendly", "Solo Friendly" games.
Casual players - in terms of the amount of time they spend playing, can actually thrive quite well in this type of enviroment. Because it is more about playing your role within a game, as a team member vs playing solo.
You must be using an interesting definition of Casual.
Wait...having to corpse run to a safe zone so you can respawn with all your loot? Wtf happened with that? When I played, you had to go get your corpse with all your loot on it or hire a Necromancer to summon it requiring an expensive casket to use as a reagent. Not go to some other zone to spawn it. Like the time our power went out while doing Juggs in Sebilis, died past the door...you know, the one you need a rogue to picklock. Not too easy to get as a naked Warrior. But that was part of the game and part of it that made it exciting.
I agree. Having death actually mean something was fun. I remember dying several times on a corpse run, finally getting all of my corpses piled up and hiring a cleric to rez them all to get some exp back.
Sure it could be a pain, but it added to the adventure of going deep into a dungeon. It made the items you got while adventuring there feel even more valuable.
Not having a penalty when you die in mmos since then has definitely taken away some of the fun for me.
Exactly. It's sad that one of my favorite expansions for EQ, PoP, was also the expansion where a lot of the things I'm really starting to hate came from. Graveyards, an easy way to "port" around the world with the Plane of Knowledge. I loved the flagging system before they started opening the planes up. It actually required some work to get to the zones that were profitable in exp and loot. An amazing concept, I know. BoT was one of the greatest zones that I've leveled up in...before it turned into the new Karnor's when they opened it up.
I saw earlier in the thread somoene brought up that it seems a lot of the games that are coming out lately that are labeled MMORPGs are taking the MMO out of it. Really they're just big online RPGs, there's not much massive or multiplayer about them, other than being online with them at the same time. Maybe I'm biased (ok, I'm very biased) but I thought EQ had pretty much everything for an MMO that I loved. I"d compare it to the last three Elder Scrolls games in that you are just thrown into a big, breathing world and you make your own way. Not much to hold your hand or anything. I think there's still a crowd out there for that type of game that may be a bit grindy yet. Took me almost a year and a half to max level at 65. Could have done it quicker, but I loved to explore and try new places, not always the optimal exp getter.
Exactly. It's sad that one of my favorite expansions for EQ, PoP, was also the expansion where a lot of the things I'm really starting to hate came from. Graveyards, an easy way to "port" around the world with the Plane of Knowledge. I loved the flagging system before they started opening the planes up. It actually required some work to get to the zones that were profitable in exp and loot. An amazing concept, I know. BoT was one of the greatest zones that I've leveled up in...before it turned into the new Karnor's when they opened it up.
I saw earlier in the thread somoene brought up that it seems a lot of the games that are coming out lately that are labeled MMORPGs are taking the MMO out of it. Really they're just big online RPGs, there's not much massive or multiplayer about them, other than being online with them at the same time. Maybe I'm biased (ok, I'm very biased) but I thought EQ had pretty much everything for an MMO that I loved. I"d compare it to the last three Elder Scrolls games in that you are just thrown into a big, breathing world and you make your own way. Not much to hold your hand or anything. I think there's still a crowd out there for that type of game that may be a bit grindy yet. Took me almost a year and a half to max level at 65. Could have done it quicker, but I loved to explore and try new places, not always the optimal exp getter.
Although it has only barely gotten underway, there is a game being made that caters to that mindset (and unapologetically so). Pathfinder Online. It's being built according to the persistant world paradigm instead of the modern definition of the MMORPG paradigm. You might be interested in reading more about it. One of the developers, Ryan Dancey, posts often on the Pathfinder Online section of the Paizo forums at www.paizo.com . The project has an actual website, but at the moment it's just a bunch of blog posts. Still...you may enjoy it. Nothing to lose by looking into it. =)
Although it has only barely gotten underway, there is a game being made that caters to that mindset (and unapologetically so). Pathfinder Online. It's being built according to the persistant world paradigm instead of the modern definition of the MMORPG paradigm. You might be interested in reading more about it. One of the developers, Ryan Dancey, posts often on the Pathfinder Online section of the Paizo forums at www.paizo.com . The project has an actual website, but at the moment it's just a bunch of blog posts. Still...you may enjoy it. Nothing to lose by looking into it. =)
Thanks, I'll have to keep an eye on it. :)
I actually think that there's another EQ in the makings as well. Heard rumors that they taking a step back and going back to more of EQ1 than EQ2 and the like with it. Keeping an eye on that one too, but I'm hoping TERA will make that moot for a long while at least.
Yes that was Tibia that is the feeling that made me feel high. Your character's life is like your life you could spend years and get hunted and lose everything in an instant. People had to know there place knowing when to risk it all knowing what not to say.
Unlike now a level 1 on Tera can mouth off to the best player in the game and only get "ganked" Tibia.. reflects real life it was something else...
....this is how all those school shootings started, I'm sure...
Edited by: Rinland
about 1 year ago
- Reason: Being ocd...