What Exactly is EndGame?

Pixil Profile Options #11

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everyone on 07/16/2012, 10:23 PM - view
Endgame in Western Themepark MMOs is highly focussed and strongly based on progression. That is, the more skilled and the more effort you put directly into progression the more you are rewarded. This also sets up a positive feedback loop because others can see they are rewarded by those in-game attributes. You could say this type of endgame creates loyal veterans.

By contrast, Tera like most Asian MMOs, relies on very high RNG and just general game-related efforts (it does not even have to be in-game, e.g. using cash shop items to effectively buy gold and time). Activities like grinding the same normal pve mobs or low level mobs can result in the most efficient use of players in-game time with an endgoal being either a *chance* for progression or selling back that time to other players. So, sure this perpetuates the lifetime of the game but a significant cost to enjoyability for most players. In addition, there is no positive feedback loop - if anything the converse is true. You could say this type of endgame creates "whales", i.e. players who either have vast timesinks or spend the most on the game.

A secondary issue is that whales are normally associated with the Free-To-Play model in the West where they become the lifeblood of the game. Whales are the ones who are actually paying for the game's existence and all other players are just additional content. So, this creates the appearance of a contradiction: does Tera want to be a F2P game or are is it trying to buy as much time as possible to develop a progressive or sandbox endgame?

A tertiary issue is the nature of players has changed a lot over a decade. Not only has there been a massive influx of casual players, a large increase in competitive games and game types, but also evolution towards very casual-friendly games. RNG is anything but casual-friendly (oddly enough Tera designers seem to be perfectly aware of that for anything but the endgame).

Either way, clearly, the status quo is untenable for a large Western audience and will result in either a failed game or Funcom-style pidgeonhole within a short period of time, especially given the staggering competition not just in this years MMO releases, but future releases such as PSO2, B&S, C9, Archeage, heck maybe even Raider Z.


^truth
Connery Profile Options #12

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Tera's end game is throwing gold at Alkehest.
HTakara82 Profile Options #13

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I'll use the biggest western MMO, WoW, as an example. WoW is also heavily RNG based. Maybe not in enchant like TERA is, but the RNG is in drops. People would farm the same dungeon for months just to get a pair of boots, how is that any different?
JPsama Profile Options #14

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Sharpsmile on 07/16/2012, 09:50 PM - view
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSQFcpfjVcc&feature=youtu.be


I laughed so hard.. +1
Spectral Profile Options #15

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HTakara82 on 07/17/2012, 07:48 AM - view
I'll use the biggest western MMO, WoW, as an example. WoW is also heavily RNG based. Maybe not in enchant like TERA is, but the RNG is in drops. People would farm the same dungeon for months just to get a pair of boots, how is that any different?


In WoW you're losing time only for the most part. In Tera with enchanting, you're potentially losing a lot of gold and time. With enchanting you can end up losing a huge % of your gold(all of it) with nothing to show for it. For some people who are unlucky it's a constant grind. You will spend your whole day farming and end up in a worse state than if you didn't play at all when trying to progress via the enchanting system. Especially since gold can buy you almost literally anything in this game except luck lmao. So some get gated in, get too frustrated and quit, some don't. Some others get lucky, then yell at everyone else that the system is fine. Maybe it's a necessary gold sink but that just points to poor design regardless.
Edited by: Spectral 11 months ago
JPsama Profile Options #16

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HTakara82 on 07/17/2012, 07:48 AM - view
I'll use the biggest western MMO, WoW, as an example. WoW is also heavily RNG based. Maybe not in enchant like TERA is, but the RNG is in drops. People would farm the same dungeon for months just to get a pair of boots, how is that any different?


Months because there is a lockout... opposed to TerA where people have reported completing a dungeon 100~ times without getting their desired drop.

Then add in after getting that 1 drop, the thousands of gold you need to enchant it.

Then add in that this is done just to get to the next dungeon or hard mode and do it all again from scratch but the cost of gold is higher this time around.

I'd wager you spend more time farming Gold than actually running the dungeons. Why are you doing all this work? So you can run the dungeons... faster. in WoW at least their are quality achievements for raids that result in rewards. In TerA... you run the dungeon... faster.

rocdog Profile Options #17

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Spectral on 07/17/2012, 08:22 AM - view
In WoW you're losing time only for the most part. In Tera with enchanting, you're potentially losing a lot of gold and time. With enchanting you can end up losing a huge % of your gold(all of it) with nothing to show for it.


In an MMO, as IRL, time = money. If you are "losing time only", you are losing time and money.

The big difference with enchanting, is that you can see a lot of money go down the drain all at once, rather than watch your earning potential go to waste in a raid. Early raids in WoW did not have large gold drops from bosses. That was added later to compensate players for having bad luck with the RNG.
Pharys Profile Options #18

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Ifris Lvl.60
Tempest Reach (PVE)
High Elf Priest
@Littelicebreaker, could you please mention one MMO where you had "endgame fun that was really fun and exciting for over 3 months"

@Everybody else, could you please list an MMO that is not influenced by RNG at endgame.
BTW, is progression the western acceptable term for grind? Is grind the Korean term for progression?
JPsama Profile Options #19

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rocdog on 07/17/2012, 08:32 AM - view

In an MMO, as IRL, time = money. If you are "losing time only", you are losing time and money.


Then we could also say that since Time = Money, that Time + Money = Money + Money. You're losing 2 times the money, and that's not funny honey.... bunny.... sunny.. runny.... Chester Copperpot.
ReiKoji Profile Options #20

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HTakara82 on 07/17/2012, 07:48 AM - view
I'll use the biggest western MMO, WoW, as an example. WoW is also heavily RNG based. Maybe not in enchant like TERA is, but the RNG is in drops. People would farm the same dungeon for months just to get a pair of boots, how is that any different?


No, WoW RNG is not anywhere near as bad as TERA's. Remove Teras enchanting for a second. Go into A dungeon of each for each game. Kill bosses, what do the bosses drop in each game. WoW: A piece of gear all the time, 2 off the last boss. TERA: something if youre LUCKY, no one may get anything off of any boss in the dungeon.

No one is going in a -dungeon- for months trying to get a pair of boots in WoW. Raids It could take a month, but then again Raid bosses drop way more pieces of gear ALWAYS as well, and raids are set to reset every tuesday, so 1 raid per week per raid instance. Someone is going to get something, especially if it is everyones first time through. They throw raids into tera, and we will very well end up with raid bosses that drop only White alkahest...