Open world PvP broken by teleportation system in the LFD tool.
How can EME be so friggen stupid?!? Some may think all I am is negative and just love to bitxh. But I am in fact just trying to help make this game better. EME fails to see what they are going or just doesn't give 2 [filtered]s.
As the guy stated like 2 posts up.. Once end game is reached or even before.. All people will do is sit in town to queue for the dungeons and battlegrounds. Open world PvP will be dead and nothing EME can do to change that once the game dies. Take action now EME and remove the fuking teleportation from the LFD tool! That is all you have to do and you fixes the problem!
How fukin hard is it to take that part out? Oh wait, it's not hard at all! Please do this and give us our open world PvP or this will just be another Vindictis or just don't even bother making any PvP servers.
Im genuinly curious and must ask this. If so many pvpers are so against this system and are afraid of it ruining open world pvp....won' t they just not use it if you are all of the same mind? Or is it that the people who roll on pvp don't really want pvp at all and as soon as given a way out they will take it? If that is the case then why roll pvp if you will run away from it at the first opportunity? If it really is the case that the majority or "pvpers" are like this then the "true" pvpers are even more of a minority than you thought. In which case eme is certainly not going to listen to such a small albeit vocal minority over pleasing more of the actual majority.
Im genuinly curious and must ask this. If so many pvpers are so against this system and are afraid of it ruining open world pvp....won' t they just not use it if you are all of the same mind? Or is it that the people who roll on pvp don't really want pvp at all and as soon as given a way out they will take it? If that is the case then why roll pvp if you will run away from it at the first opportunity? If it really is the case that the majority or "pvpers" are like this then the "true" pvpers are even more of a minority than you thought. In which case eme is certainly not going to listen to such a small albeit vocal minority over pleasing more of the actual majority.
I'm not against it because it ruins PVP. I'm against it because there's a very good chance I'll never see the same group of peeps twice and therefore defeating any incentive to foster friendship. In addition, it will enable trolls to work their magic because there is no worry about reputation. In a real community, reputation matters. There won't be a community.
If people want to sit in town all day waiting for Dungeons, just roll Dragon Nest, Vindictus, GW, or all those other lobby games. Whats the point of immersion if no one wants it?
All these "improvements" are just the updates they are receiving to be able to slowly catch up with kTERA. All of these things already exist in the Korean version, it does not ruin anything...
Only thing about the stupid instant tele-to-instance window pop that annoys me is the fact that you can't click any other window while the thing is open... so as I try to manage my AH items, POP! I either take it or have to close it to continue what I was doing and run to the instance instead.
If you don't want to read the incoming wall, go read the linked articles, should be enough and they're much better written.
Personally my biggest problem with the tool is that it is cross-server, second would be the teleportation aspect.
The cross-server issue has been mentioned plenty, it largely removes player accountability, and thus limits or removes much of a sense of a server wide community. This isn't a problem for people who already have guilds or a small group of friends with whom they've always played with.
It easily becomes one for new players, and players who aren't connected to an existing guild or mmo however. Because most players who aren't already part of an existing community will effectively be required to use the tool both for the buffs/rewards and for simply finding players to group with in a reasonable time frame, they don't even get an opportunity to create new connection.
When there is no community or group of friends to keep players around, once the players have reached a level of mastery of the game mechanics, they'll simply leave and find a new game. Then when new players try a game only to find a ghost town or a collection of tight knit groups where they have little means of gaining entry, they are NOT encouraged to stay there.
This means that once the initial population burst of release comes and goes, the game population will only be able to go one way when no community exists to absorb them, and tie them to the game, down.
TERA fortunately has somewhat of an advantage over typical MMOs because the game mechanics will take somewhat more effort to reach a level of mastery over, but the end result is still going to be the same without a means of creating open communities within a single server, and that requires accountability.
The teleportation aspect is also one mentioned before, as with WoW, the end result is almost always one where people don't bother doing much anything other than sitting around town queuing for an instance, clearing it, and teleporting back to town. In that kind of environment, the open world is effectively useless, and empty once the player reaches "end game."
The game may as well be a non-mmo action game like Vindictus, where players do non-combat activity in town, then join a dungeon party of 4 or ~8 for raids, teleport to the instance dungeon, and teleport back to town once cleared. The combat system could even be improved since the open world wouldn't need to be developed at all.
I appreciate you posting this, it has helped me understand more of how this works. However, I am still a bit lost as to how this changes the game negatively. I have played Lineage 2 since its inception and I am really looking forward to Tera. L2 has a party matching system that I really like and I don't feel it has impacted the game in a negative way. Can you or someone relate this Tera Party Matching function to how the one in L2 works so I can get a better understanding of how it would relate to me? Personally, I like the L2 party match system because I have limited time to play and so much of it used to be taken up by LFG (Looking for Group). So now if no one in my clan is available, I simply get in the party match system and quickly I am in an instance. Although, in L2 there is no summon option, and everyone has to be in the same town to begin the instance.
I must state here how I'm THRILLED by the fact that EME (Minea, specifically) manifested to lock a thread talking about the LFD stating there are too many threads on the issue, but not A SINGLE [filtered] WORD about the concerns of the playerbase.
WAY TO GO, MINEA. I love you more and more with each passing day, only NOT.
And straight from that linked article:
I used to play to occupy my time; I mostly solo'd and didn't care about being part of a group. Now I like to be a cog in a bigger machine and help a group achieve goals. [EQ, F, 60]
That's exactly the kind of attitude we won't see anymore in TERA because of the LFD. People will join a zerg guild for the sole reason of trying to secure a Vanarchy and never talk to anyone just queuing dungeons whenever they are online. NICE.
The teleportation aspect is also one mentioned before, as with WoW, the end result is almost always one where people don't bother doing much anything other than sitting around town queuing for an instance, clearing it, and teleporting back to town. In that kind of environment, the open world is effectively useless, and empty once the player reaches "end game."
The game may as well be a non-mmo action game like Vindictus, where players do non-combat activity in town, then join a dungeon party of 4 or ~8 for raids, teleport to the instance dungeon, and teleport back to town once cleared. The combat system could even be improved since the open world wouldn't need to be developed at all.
This seems very stupid to me. Think about it this way, there are 2 things that will happen without this system:
1) People sit in whatever area has the dungeon and just wait trying to get a group together with people in that dungeon.
OR
2) People will sit in town talking through the Area chat trying to get a group together.
Notice that the same thing is happening: Both groups sit in an area, spam chat and wait for a party.
What will happen with the system? Well, the complete reverse of what you people think it will do. If I don't have to sit in town waiting to try and form a party through shouting, I won't! I'll head out, quest, gather stuff, explore the world, etc... all while my dungeon timer is ticking down. I can keep doing exactly what I want to do AND look for a dungeon at the same time. The server-only group must have people actively form a party... but allows the same thing. I list myself as wanting a group and go out to level, waiting for someone to pick me to dungeon. Otherwise, once in a while I look for a party to join. The LFD system will encourage people to go out and do stuff while trying to get into a dungeon rather than sit and wait in town, which what they will do now.
Open world PvP IS NOT broken by teleportation system in the LFD tool.
Nobody on 04/13/2012, 07:37 AM
How can I be so friggen stupid?!? Some may agree that all I am is negative and just love to bitxh. But I am in fact just trying to help make this game better for me. I fail to see what they are going or just doesn't give 2 [filtered]s.
^
Just made some fixes in bold to the above.
Nobody on 04/13/2012, 07:37 AM
As the guy stated like 2 posts up.. Once end game is reached or even before.. All people will do is sit in town to queue for the dungeons and battlegrounds. Open world PvP will be dead and nothing EME can do to change that once the game dies. Take action now EME and remove the fuking teleportation from the LFD tool! That is all you have to do and you fixes the problem!
Except that, it won't. People would be sitting in town all day anyways shouting through Area chat trying to get a group together or they would be in the area of the dungeon all day doing the same. You know the difference between the three cases? Sitting in town all day shouting = sitting in town all day shouting. Sitting in the area all day shouting = sitting in the area all day shouting. Having the LFD tool that teleports you to the dungeon = being able to explore, quest, fight and do anything you would normally do while still looking for a dungeon.
Nobody on 04/13/2012, 07:37 AM
How fukin hard is it to take that part out? Oh wait, it's not hard at all! Please do this and give us our open world PvP or this will just be another Vindictis or just don't even bother making any PvP servers.
^
If this is how the majority of the PvP community feels, please, PLEASE, PLEASE follow the part in bold above!! Less whiners = better.
This seems very stupid to me. Think about it this way, there are 2 things that will happen without this system:
1) People sit in whatever area has the dungeon and just wait trying to get a group together with people in that dungeon.
OR
2) People will sit in town talking through the Area chat trying to get a group together.
Notice that the same thing is happening: Both groups sit in an area, spam chat and wait for a party.
What will happen with the system? Well, the complete reverse of what you people think it will do. If I don't have to sit in town waiting to try and form a party through shouting, I won't! I'll head out, quest, gather stuff, explore the world, etc... all while my dungeon timer is ticking down. I can keep doing exactly what I want to do AND look for a dungeon at the same time. The server-only group must have people actively form a party... but allows the same thing. I list myself as wanting a group and go out to level, waiting for someone to pick me to dungeon. Otherwise, once in a while I look for a party to join. The LFD system will encourage people to go out and do stuff while trying to get into a dungeon rather than sit and wait in town, which what they will do now.
Actually though, 1 and 2 are very different in the one area that matters most here. In number 2, they are forced to communicate with each other. You CAN'T just sit back in silence waiting for the system to stick you in a group and off you go, nor can you run out alone gathering or doing whatever until the same thing happens.
You need to contact people, on your own server, people who you likely will see again in the future, and will need to communicate with even to get things started. You can't create a community without communication. And the most common reason and way people likely communicate in MMOs is going to be because they have some sort of common goal they need each other to reach.
This seems to be something a lot of people who already have the benefit of a guild or group of friends they play with regularly are missing. Not everyone does, nor will everyone go out of their way to find one unless they had previous positive experience with it. The new players are going to have to start or join communities the same way most of you probably did in your very first MMO where you had a guild, in-game communication.
Often that first contact comes because you had to go out of your way to recruit or find a group doing something you needed help with on your server, found you worked well together and got along, and went from there.
Riesling on 04/13/2012, 09:24 AM
I appreciate you posting this, it has helped me understand more of how this works. However, I am still a bit lost as to how this changes the game negatively. I have played Lineage 2 since its inception and I am really looking forward to Tera. L2 has a party matching system that I really like and I don't feel it has impacted the game in a negative way. Can you or someone relate this Tera Party Matching function to how the one in L2 works so I can get a better understanding of how it would relate to me? Personally, I like the L2 party match system because I have limited time to play and so much of it used to be taken up by LFG (Looking for Group). So now if no one in my clan is available, I simply get in the party match system and quickly I am in an instance. Although, in L2 there is no summon option, and everyone has to be in the same town to begin the instance.
Thanks for any enlightenment provided.
Sorry another wall of text,
The first thing, and main thing relevant from the articles, is that for an MMO to survive it obviously needs players, but while players may come initially for the novelty of a new world, and game mechanics to learn and explore, once reaching a mastery of those skills, players tend to either stay for community. Friends, guilds, etc. or leave if they don't have those community ties. This means the main thing in longevity for an MMO is going to be encouraging players to create community ties with each other. What is keeping the players there can't be the impossibility of constantly creating enough new content to keep them satisfied , but friends and other relationships they consider worthwhile enough to pay the subscription, and yes, use the game as a glorified chat room while playing on a less hardcore basis.
The main problem isn't so much the LFD system itself existing, but the system being cross server. I only played Lineage 2 very briefly so I don't know how that system worked specifically, but when you cross server this sort of system you take any real reason to communicate with party members away, there's not much point in chatting and making friends with people you'll probably never see again because they're on a different server and you won't be able to play with them normally anyway. The end result is probably something most of us have experienced at least once, and that's joining a random party, never saying a word, moving through the instance or quest, finishing it, and basically forgetting the other party members entirely. They may as well be NPCs except when they screw up and people jump to blame each other. Or probably an even worse situation, where you end up with players actively working against the party goals. But what can you do about those players when they're on another server, and you will most likely never see each other again? Nothing, that's why accountability goes out the window. No one can hold anyone else responsible, and trying is ultimately futile, so no one wants to waste the effort and time.
Neither of these things however, typically effect players who already have an existing community they're attached to, moving from game to game. I am willing to bet they are not the majority of players who will be playing come launch however.
So how do those new, unconnected players, form a community. Normally, and in most older games without this type of cross server party matching system, they would probably form a group of players looking to accomplish a common goal, a dungeon run, group quest, or PvP, and by necessity, they must be on the same server. Sure this took time and effort, often a lot of it, but it forced communication, and you need communication to create a community. On top of that, because these players had to play together in the same server, they needed to have some level of respect for the other players, or they become ostracized, and effectively lost the capability to participate in content requiring other people.
In the end, the players will have naturally developed friendsips, and/or started or joined guilds, as they progressed sharing a common goal, facing common challenges, they developed what they considered worthwhile relationships. Then when the content inevitably ran out, they had something worthwhile to log back in for, until new content was produced, or simply in lieu of new content altogether.
While a cross server LFD system is most certainly convenient, and useful, and players will love it while they are in the starting, and progression phases, the cross server nature comes back to bite both those unconnected players, and the company in the butt. Without any requirement or incentive to communicate, naturally they don't form, or integrate into other communities except through extra, specific effort to do so on the players part. Most players won't see much point in that when the LFD system works quickly and conveniently, and doesn't require any real social interaction, and so when they run out of content generally they leave the game for a new one.
This basically goes back to what I first posted about the ghost town servers and the like left over.
With no new influx of new players, the existing community is basically like a civilization with nothing but old folks and no children or young adults, eventually they start to quit/die as well, and the civilization goes extinct/game dies.
Things like a cross server LFD system is appropriate for the end of the life cycle of the game, when populations on individual servers are no longer capable of supporting healthy gameplay, and they only help to prolong the game when those communities already exist, but have shrunk to the point they can't support themselves on a single server, and it's no fix either, it can only slow it down a little and stave off actual server merges.
In what should be a very healthy new game launch, it's counterproductive, like giving chemo to a patient who doesn't have cancer but has a risk for it, it's more likely to give them cancer than to help them in any way when they should already be healthy.