has the casual gamer killed MMOs

VeganMage Profile Options #81

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Hmm, Guild wars 2 will be a good game, they try to eliminate all the things that make a mmo tedious and frustrating. But heres how i look at it, I am playing a MMORPG, i actually don't mind the gear treadmill, as long as its accessible to the many and not to the few. Problem is with new fresh lvl 60s in TERA. Usually start off with 138 item lvl. They try to do any of the lvl 60 content, they will get booted. Tranistioning in tera is piss poor and i hate how essentially you can be gear barred from the instance using lfg. Tera needs to improve how gear is given and how much it affects gameplay and progression.

At the same token, i hate the idea that if I do a dungeon in gw 2, the most i can hope for is a different looking set of gear. Doesn't matter if the game has 100 dungeons, if the rewards are not worth the effort, then i won't waste my time. Secondly, the pve looks decent, but at the same time, i don't think i will be compelled to get all the way to lvl 80. I probably will spend most of mine time in the instanced pvp and wvw, since you get the scaled to proper lvl and get better gear in those instanced modes. Which is not a bad thing per say, but I like to feel motivated to go all the way to lvl 80, and as it stands the only real reason to get to lvl 80 is for the skills, (which i hear u can also get in pvp too, correct me if im wrong plz) because i have never really been motivated to get to max lvl by story alone, if i cared about the story, i would probably be playing a single player rpg, they tend to have more fleshed out stories.

Basically what I am trying to say is, with a MMO when you take away the things it makes it tedious, you actaully make the game less of a MMORPG and more of a MMOG( massively multiplayer online game). This is probably why they went with a b2p model, because they know people will play this game in bursts and not in moderation.

I actually like the holy trinity and i can tolerate the gear progression if its seemless and doesn't effect the progression of the character.

One thing i do consider a true negative is that all pvp is instanced in guild wars 2. The closest thing you will get to the open world pvp feel is wvw, and thats not quite the same since anyone in that instance is prepared to fight from the start.

If i do decide to get gw2 which i am still unsure about, then i definately will play it alongside tera

Edited by: VeganMage 10 months ago
Gallus Profile Options #82

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Not trying to shoot down your opinions here, people like what they like, but I'd like to ask you a few questions, and comment on some things you said.
VeganMage on 08/03/2012, 12:17 PM - view
i actually don't mind the gear treadmill, as long as its accessible to the many and not to the few. Problem is with new fresh lvl 60s in TERA. Usually start off with 138 item lvl..... essentially you can be gear barred from the instance using lfg.....

At the same token, i hate the idea that if I do a dungeon in gw 2, the most i can hope for is a different looking set of gear. Doesn't matter if the game has 100 dungeons, if the rewards are not worth the effort, then i won't waste my time.


Ok gunna stop here and point out something that bothers me. "Waste my time". Ok well why do you feel that doing PVE is a Waste of Time? You seem to suggest that cosmetic items and other awards are not good unless they give you a statistical advantage. Why do you personally care about the statistical stuff? If the best stuff in the game is, lets say, +100 power.... you don't want to run PVE unless it will give you +110 power? In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't make you "More powerful", because frankly, everyone else is going to go and get that gear too. Mobs are going to be designed to combat this new "best" gear. You might do it faster, you might do it slower, but in the end everyone will have that same statistical bonus of +110 power, mobs will still end up putting up a fight. So why do you feel that it's not worth your time if you don't get stat boost? You're not getting a leg-up over anyone else. ALL MMORPG PVE is designed around the stats. The mobs are never "easier". Statistical increases only bar you from content until you reach the required item level to do it. So why do you care?

2nd. Why is the PVE a "waste of time". Do you find zero enjoyment from the PVE itself? Isn't the wide variety of PVE fun to do? Don't you enjoy slaying baddies with your friends? Roleplaying maybe? Helping complete dynamic events that have an impact on the world? For the lore and enriching yourself in the fantasy world? I know most MMORPG PVE is so boring that I don't do it except to get PVP gear, but GW2 is a different beast. PVE is designed to be enjoyable and fun to do, just to do it. The rewards are just a side-effect.

See, this is THE main problem GW2 is going to face. Trying to make people understand that PVE can be fun, if it's designed to be fun. It doesn't have to be a chore or job just to get shiny stat gear.

VeganMage on 08/03/2012, 12:17 PM - view
Secondly, the pve looks decent, but at the same time, i don't think i will be compelled to get all the way to lvl 80. I probably will spend most of mine time in the instanced pvp and wvw, since you get the scaled to proper lvl and get better gear in those instanced modes. Which is not a bad thing per say, but I like to feel motivated to go all the way to lvl 80, and as it stands the only real reason to get to lvl 80 is for the skills, (which i hear u can also get in pvp too, correct me if im wrong plz) because i have never really been motivated to get to max lvl by story alone, if i cared about the story, i would probably be playing a single player rpg, they tend to have more fleshed out stories.


Your items in the WvWvW area are from the PVE. Your level is bumped to 80, but your available skill selection, your trait points*Very important* and your gear bonuses come from your PVE level/gear. So there is incentive to get to lvl 80 for WvWvW.... but basically, it gives everyone a fighting chance in WvWvW, regardless of their level/gear. But it does have an impact on your performance

Also, I tend to agree that most single player RPGs do a much better job at story and lore and such, but here's another area where I think you'll be happy with. GW2 story, lore, and presentation is EXTREMELY GOOD. Much better than a lot of single player RPGs. The devs knew that they weren't going to get people to do "boring, meaningless PVE" especially if it's not for a statistical advantage. That's why they took a lot of care into presenting meaningful stories and having living-world Dynamic events. So you can enjoy the PVE for the PVE. The devs have often said that you should enjoy the game from start to finish. Not "just when you hit *ENDGAME*". They wanted the whole game to be "End Game" like, and to be an enjoyable and fun PVE experience.

The gear-treadmills only act as a bar between players, this is exactly what's wrong with MMORPGs and exactly the thing GW2 doesn't want happening. (Not to mention that gear treadmills are POINTLESS, because everyone will eventually be on the same gear level. Getting better gear doesn't make you "More powerful", it just makes you work so you can be on the same power level of everyone else).

GW2 has designed the game based on a "More is better" philosophy. They don't ever want someone excluded because they don't have the right gear, or because they're not the right level, or because they're not the right class. This is why GW2 is a true MMORPG. It's putting the MMO, the community, back into the game.

VeganMage on 08/03/2012, 12:17 PM - view
Basically what I am trying to say is, with a MMO when you take away the things it makes it tedious, you actaully make the game less of a MMORPG and more of a MMOG( massively multiplayer online game). This is probably why they went with a b2p model, because they know people will play this game in bursts and not in moderation.


I disagree. At no time has there ever been a definition of "Massively Multiplayer Online Tedious Gear Grind". RPG stands for Role Playing. So as long as your character is given ways to be customized to how you want to play, act, look and roleplay, then it fits the bill. MMORPG does not = Gear Treadmill. It's just something that's been copied and done to death since EQ. Hell, in MUDS like DF, and IoK and LoK... and in UO. The BEST gear in the game had always been fairly easy to get, and you kept multiple copies of the gear in your bank because if you got PKed you'd drop all your loot and you needed backups. They weren't Gear Treadmils.

VeganMage on 08/03/2012, 12:17 PM - view
I actually like the holy trinity and i can tolerate the gear progression if its seemless and doesn't effect the progression of the character.


Again, all gear progession end-game treadmills are not seamless. At some point, you get players who can't play with each other because they haven't "Put in enough PVE work.

Don't be confused though. GW2 does indeed have gear progression. 1 to 79 you're always upgrading and customizing and improving your character. It's just that the end-game at lvl 80 isn't about "1 upping other players in a gear treadmill". It's about exploring the game, having fun with people, and enjoying the content, for the content itself (And the cosmetic and other items rewarded are just a nice bonus, imo).

VeganMage on 08/03/2012, 12:17 PM - view
One thing i do consider a true negative is that all pvp is instanced in guild wars 2. The closest thing you will get to the open world pvp feel is wvw, and thats not quite the same since anyone in that instance is prepared to fight from the start.


Yes, they are prepared for a fight. You dislike this? You prefer finding a lvl 58 out trying to level with PVE glyphs on and you get to run up with your T13 PVP weapon and 2 shot him/her? Is that your idea of good pvp? The WvWvW not being combined with the PVE world is a great thing imo. FFA pvp has it's place. But many games like Tera do it completely wrong, and give it a bad name. FFA pvp has to have reason, purpose, and some semblance of balance. True good FFA PVP OW games have bosses to control, land/content areas that can be blocked or guarded. Forts to be capped, etc etc.

Besides, the WvWvW world pvp and siege mechanics are nothing to gripe about. It's some of the most amazingly well done mass-pvp mechanics I've ever seen. A real fantasy-war simulator almost lol. It's great.

VeganMage on 08/03/2012, 12:17 PM - view
If i do decide to get gw2 which i am still unsure about, then i definately will play it alongside tera


I plan to play GW2, along side BF3, BF4, Aliens:Colonial Marines, and many other great games that are coming out. But as far as MMORPGs are concerned, Nothing comes close imo, but if something comes along, I'll probably give it a try. Tera is too bad to hold my interest any more then it already has compared to GW2.
Edited by: Gallus 10 months ago - Reason: FTW
Karyudo Profile Options #83

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QQ I didn't get attention from Gallus from my post last page!
But the short version is I am honestly trying to understand this:
Gallus on 08/03/2012, 12:58 PM

I know most MMORPG PVE is so boring that I don't do it except to get PVP gear, but GW2 is a different beast. PVE is designed to be enjoyable and fun to do, just to do it. The rewards are just a side-effect.

I fail to see how GW2 pve is any different than the pve of other games (save that it seems to be halfway between traditional tab target and Tera). Open world has DE which is to me just a drastically improved quest giving system (I realize we disagree here so I will reserve further judgment on this till I can do the orr zone first hand). But when you get right down to it why do you a person who seems to despise the pve of other mmo's enjoy the pve in GW2? You run other mmo dungeon of choice vs you run GW2 dungeon of choice, why do you feel the gw2 one is more fun? why would you enjoy running it multiple times and not the Tera one?

Part of the fun for Me and it seems for Vegan as well is the ability to get gear to improve our characters from that. With that lost, what replaces it for you? It almost seems to me that you say you like it for the sole reason that there is no gear upgrades to be gotten, not because they are actually improved in any way.

Gallus on 08/03/2012, 12:58 PM
VeganMage on 08/03/2012, 12:17 PM
One thing i do consider a true negative is that all pvp is instanced in guild wars 2. The closest thing you will get to the open world pvp feel is wvw, and thats not quite the same since anyone in that instance is prepared to fight from the start.


Yes, they are prepared for a fight. You dislike this? You prefer finding a lvl 58 out trying to level with PVE glyphs on and you get to run up with your T13 PVP weapon and 2 shot him/her? Is that your idea of good pvp? The WvWvW not being combined with the PVE world is a great thing imo. FFA pvp has it's place. But many games like Tera do it completely wrong, and give it a bad name. FFA pvp has to have reason, purpose, and some semblance of balance. True good FFA PVP OW games have bosses to control, land/content areas that can be blocked or guarded. Forts to be capped, etc etc.

I'm with Gallus on this one (GASP I know right!?!?) WvW had all the good points of open world pvp with none of the downsides. My only complaint with this is the maps seemed to fill very fast and you would get stuck with a queue. So If my Friends are calling for help to come take point X I get stuck in a queue. I also fully understand the reasoning behind it so while frustrating I find it acceptable. OW pvp with objectives? Yes please.
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Karyudo on 08/03/2012, 02:05 PM - view

I fail to see how GW2 pve is any different than the pve of other games


Ok, gunna try to explain this to you again, and hopefully this will be the last time. I'll try to use Standard MMORPG VS GW2 for examples.

Standard MMORPG PVE = talk to NPC, he tells you some long winded wall of text you normally bypass by clicking NEXT 10 times, then you get some journey entry that tells you "Kill the invading orcs! 0/20" (This is where you seem to get lost, because you think DE's are just some sort of "easier mode of getting quests", so hold on and continue reading)

When you head over to the area in Standard MMORPG, there are orcs, but they aren't doing jack [filtered]. They're all standing the same spot like a buncha AFK players in town. Picking their nose, mouth breathing and farting. You go up, kill 20 of them. Walk back to NPC and get quest complete credit.

This, is, [filtered], boring.

Now in GW2. You're traveling along and.... Oh crap there's a huge 35 foot tall Fire Golem heading toward a village. YOU SEE THIS. You get a notification (Stop the golem from reaching the town!") So you and your crew run up and start engaging this huge monster.... Oh crap he's too strong for just you and your little 4 man crew! You're getting pounded... Oh here comes another group of 4 adventurers, now the 8 of you are engaging this huge epic monster! But you all die to some super huge fire beam of doom because we're nub like that and don't use the dodge feature!

The monster makes it to the town.... you lose. You head back to the town, but it's too late and all the NPCs are dead....

This is why GW2 PVE is fun. It's living. It matters. Failure has a different outcome then success. You're not told that "orcs are invading" and then kill 10 or 20 of them sitting around picking their nose. You actually see them invading. You see them attacking the town in real time and there is a consequence if you fail. It's the quality of PVE that you see from single player RPGs. Do you honestly think that Skyrim would have been successful if they used WoW/Tera-style PVE? Go forth and Kill Alduin before he burns the town down! And when you head over to the dragon, he's sitting in a field, walking back and forth, AFK, waiting for you to come kill him?

No, absolutely not. So why is this some sort of gold-standard in MMORPGs? Why can you not see the difference between GW2 and others?

Hell even at lvl 7 I participated in a Dynamic event when this huge sea-monster came out of the water and started attacking players and NPCs on a beach. Most of the Dynamic event's I did during the BWE's have all been pretty damn fun and epic. Even the low level ones.

So I hope that answers your question. It's a combination of fast paced, dodging and attacking combat (Tera / Tabtarget mix as you said) with living, dynamic PVE that matters. (Not kill 10 pigs standing in a field like Tera.)


As for the dungeons, they are fun and interesting to do. 1st time through you have "Story Mode" which does a great job presenting Lore and story into the battle through the dungeon. After you finish it, you get "Exploration mode" which allows you to do the dungeon differently each time when you go through it. There are random events, different paths, secret rewards, etc etc. The dungeons aren't like in Tera, where you wander through some linear path and kill the same stuff, the exact same way, every single time.

It makes for some really good replay value.

In the end, people like what they like, but I already explained why "End game stat gear treadmills are not only pointless, but boring as well". Why you think that gear with increased stats are the only "Fun" rewards is also beyond me.

Frankly, no matter what the reward is, a PVE dungeon like the ones in Tera become monotonous and boring after the first 2 or 3 times. I don't see how you can say "Oh Standard Dungeons in games like Tera are enjoyable for me because I have a chance at better stat gear". Excuse me, but you can honestly tell me with a straight face that running FoK wasn't boring after the 3rd or 4th time you ran it? It is boring, un-enjoyable, and lame and you know it! You only run it for the gear! Not for enjoyment.

You know, even with how much better GW2's Dungeons are, how much replay value the dynamic Exploration Mode gives them, I can see at some point the dungeon would not be "fresh and fun" for me. I'm sure it doesn't offer an infinite amount of possibilities. (Good thing they'll always be updating the dungeon and adding new ones)

But at least when it DOES get to that point, and I am bored, i'm not OBLIGATED to run it a 1000 more times to get some lame stat increase (Just so I can be on-par with every other person who ran it 1000 times).

I can make the most amazing NY Style Cheesecake from scratch. I love it. I love to bake and I'm damn good at it. But I don't want to eat cheesecake every single day, I don't care how good it is, you don't want to do the same crap over and over and over again.

Same thing with MMORPGs. If I don't want to run FoK any more, I shouldn't have to. But the way the game is designed, I won't have "Good enough gear" for the next big patch, or I won't have a "strong enough geared character" for pvp if I don't.

Sorry, even if FoK was delicious Cheesecake made from scratch (Which it is not), I don't want it shoved down my throat 1000 times a month.

Karyudo on 08/03/2012, 02:05 PM - view

I'm with Gallus on this one (GASP I know right!?!?) WvW had all the good points of open world pvp with none of the downsides.


You should agree with me on everything because I am the law.
Edited by: Gallus 10 months ago - Reason: FTW
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I think the way gw2 is designed in order to be a cosmetic treadmill suits its b2p design more. It doesn't need such a tiered gear system to try and keep people playing for long periods of time. This system is made to gate people from content where one dungeon must be completed numerous times before the next one is even possible to be attempted in order to extend the life of the game. It should be, as b2p, more so that, if you want this look, -do this dungeon-, etc. However that does not mean, the gear is so easy to obtain. With a moderately achievable stat plateau, it's far easier to balance high level content and make it actually consistently challenging. One of the problems with tier'd content is while gating it also reverse gates, making content after you obtain the tier'd gear from it, child's play.

Gallus on 08/03/2012, 12:58 PM

I plan to play GW2, along side BF3, BF4, Aliens:Colonial Marines, and many other great games that are coming out. But as far as MMORPGs are concerned, Nothing comes close imo, but if something comes along, I'll probably give it a try. Tera is too bad to hold my interest any more then it already has compared to GW2.


Have you checked out Dark Souls coming out for PC this august? I think you might like the game type.

VeganMage on 08/03/2012, 12:17 PM

One thing i do consider a true negative is that all pvp is instanced in guild wars 2. The closest thing you will get to the open world pvp feel is wvw, and thats not quite the same since anyone in that instance is prepared to fight from the start.

If i do decide to get gw2 which i am still unsure about, then i definately will play it alongside tera



WvWvW is huge, far too huge to be seen as an instance by anyone who has actually explored it in its entirety. It is a massive zone at the very least.

Karyudo on 08/03/2012, 02:05 PM

Part of the fun for Me and it seems for Vegan as well is the ability to get gear to improve our characters from that. With that lost, what replaces it for you? It almost seems to me that you say you like it for the sole reason that there is no gear upgrades to be gotten, not because they are actually improved in any way.


It's the idea of improving yourself rather than being carried by your gear.
Edited by: Spectral 10 months ago
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Gallus on 08/03/2012, 04:40 PM
Why you think that gear with increased stats are the only "Fun" rewards is also beyond me.

I find gear with increased stats "fun" due to the sense of progression which I outlined here:
Karyudo on 08/03/2012, 10:31 AM
It is the journey from what you were to what you can become that makes those stories good and is what most MMO's strive to exploit. For me this character development is what I seek from my mmo, it’s not necessarily the gear reward (though that’s its most common form) it’s the transformation from "zero to hero" as it were. It is the feeling of accomplishment that you moved ahead in the world

It is merely the sense of progression it offers that I enjoy, there are other ways to accomplish it. The only issue with cosmetic rewards is once you find the set you like (for me the asura cultural armor is best) then there are no further rewards to be found in this category.

In the end from what you've said they accomplished the time sink in a much better way, rather then 2-3 dungeons your expected to run 50+ times (not sure what the honest number would be in general). They did 35? dungeons that your expected to do 4+ times, works out to about the same time investment probably but you have not repeated the same experience twice in the GW2 model. While my exact fix I mention in that quote isn't sated by this, I now at least understand why you feel the way you do about GW2.
I love this line btw:
Gallus on 08/03/2012, 04:40 PM
Then you head over to the area in Standard MMORPG, there are orcs, but they aren't doing jack [filtered]. They're all standing the same spot like a buncha AFK players in town. Picking their nose, mouth breathing and farting.

Now If I could only pick a class that suited me I'd be set (a casualty of the removal of the trinity I fear).

Spectral on 08/03/2012, 07:24 PM
It's the idea of improving yourself rather than being carried by your gear.

So the adjustment time to a new game (relatively short period)? Once you have it down you can knock out any content just fine. How long did it take to get yourself to where you could solo bam's? While its true that's the same reward its a rather short lived one. For pvp that's the same for any game. Did you really have to make great strides to improve yourself to go from Fane normal to Hard? or was it just gear that made a diff? (I've successfully tanked Fane hardmode in +3 or lower t12 gear barely meeting the GS req, still got to feel progression via gear). Has nothing to do with being "carried" by gear.
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Karyudo on 08/03/2012, 08:25 PM - view

Spectral on 08/03/2012, 07:24 PM
It's the idea of improving yourself rather than being carried by your gear.

So the adjustment time to a new game (relatively short period)? Once you have it down you can knock out any content just fine. How long did it take to get yourself to where you could solo bam's? While its true that's the same reward its a rather short lived one. For pvp that's the same for any game. Did you really have to make great strides to improve yourself to go from Fane normal to Hard? or was it just gear that made a diff? (I've successfully tanked Fane hardmode in +3 or lower t12 gear barely meeting the GS req, still got to feel progression via gear). Has nothing to do with being "carried" by gear.


End game Dungeons in gw2 should be more about your personal ability to complete them and not if you have the stats necessary to. It shouldn't be that I completed the dungeon because even though I played the same my weapon does 500 damage instead of 250. With end game dungeons it should be that, oh, I have the same stats but the party worked together more efficiently in order to beat the boss for better looking gear. Players should not be gated at all in gw2 by gear stats at max level to a harsh extent. It does not fit the model at all. It is why legendary weapons have the same stats as their exotic counterpart. They're just meant to look a hell of a lot cooler. You will not find this constant gear progression that makes previous content worthless in gw2 because all arenanet wants people to do is buy the game and have fun with it enough that they can recommend it to the next guy. There is not this pressure to make you play for 600 hours instead of 40.
Edited by: Spectral 10 months ago
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Karyudo on 08/03/2012, 10:31 AM - view
It is the journey from what you were to what you can become that makes those stories good and is what most MMO's strive to exploit. For me this character development is what I seek from my mmo, it’s not necessarily the gear reward (though that’s its most common form) it’s the transformation from "zero to hero" as it were. It is the feeling of accomplishment that you moved ahead in the world


Well that's not different in GW2. That's the point of the story quest, and story mode dungeons and all the other things you do in the game. You have 80 levels of zero to hero. It's just that in GW2, when you get to the end of the game, it's not a gear treadmill. That's not to say there isn't any "progression" after level 80, or nothing to do. Even after you level your character and your gear 80 levels, you will still have left over skill points you can earn (So that you can get additional skill choices, or spend them on gear for cosmetic looks). There are also titles, rankings, etc etc. Also, WvWvW siege warware can cost a good chunk of change if you're using the seige weapons (very important for success), so you're still going to need to run dungeons and play the PVE game to get coin.

But all this is done in a way so that each dungeon, every bit of content in the over-land areas, is still viable to do at any level. (you're never locked out from new content because your gear isn't "good enough", and old content still gives you good rewards, and is challenging *due to level scaling*. Combined with the fact that the dungeons are not linear, and have dynamic events and paths built into them, the game has a ton of PVE replay value even after the 80 levels.

Karyudo on 08/03/2012, 10:31 AM - view
In the end from what you've said they accomplished the time sink in a much better way, rather then 2-3 dungeons your expected to run 50+ times (not sure what the honest number would be in general). They did 35? dungeons that your expected to do 4+ times, works out to about the same time investment probably but you have not repeated the same experience twice in the GW2 model. While my exact fix I mention in that quote isn't sated by this, I now at least understand why you feel the way you do about GW2.


They are starting with 35 different dungeons(more to be added regularly), but they each have 2 different modes, and the 2nd mode (explorable) is like a "dynamic dungeon" that tries to prevent the same exact content from being done twice. Remember, they're building the game around "Fun PVE", not gear. The dungeons are supposed to be fun and challenging in themselves, not the reward they bring (Though they still have rewards). *Which btw are based on a token system, so you pick the reward you want with your Dungeon Points after you finish it.* No more running dungeons 30 times and having bad drops so you get nothing. Every run nets you points towards rewards of your choice, and also has random events/loot drops inside the dungeon itself. So lots of stuff to get. Very fun system.

Karyudo on 08/03/2012, 10:31 AM - view

Has nothing to do with being "carried" by gear.


Well that's all stat-gear treadmills are. Your guy gets better "gear", then there are PVP balance issues to contend with. And with the better gear, old content becomes "trivial" and then you're allowed "access" to new dungeons to fight the new bosses with your new gear (Except the new bosses and designed to be fought with the gear you have, so it's not harder/easier, it's the same as if you never did anything"). Then you get the gear from that boss, and the dungeon before it is now "trivial" and the next dungeon to come out is going to take your new gear into consideration.....

This cycle goes on and on and on in games like EQ, WoW and Tera. It's a system that succeeds in limiting viable content, baring players from each other (One player who hasn't spent 1000 hours grinding Dungeon A can't play with people doing Dungeon B with "Good gear"), and causing PVP imbalance.

GW2 has solved all these problems in a single stroke. Gear-Treadmill is a horribly dated system, so much so that I'm surprised that anyone (at least any veteran MMORPGers) is still hooked by this tired concept. It's about time a game focused on fun PVE, community, and balanced pvp. We needed it badly.

P.S. You also mentioned WvWvW que times. I had this similar issue on BWE3 myself, but When the game launches it will probably be different. Just like any "que times" on any MMORPG, the first few weeks of launch are really hecktic, and then the populations will die down and ques will disappear entirely.

Not to mention BWE's were giving away free keys, even to people who don't intend to buy the game. I in the end I think Launch will be less-full then BWE's, and after a couple weeks after launch you won't see another que ever again.

Just the nature of these games. I'm just glad that you can play in an Overflow server instead of sitting in a que. A most ingenious move for sure.
Edited by: Gallus 10 months ago - Reason: FTW