Artificial Level scaling still ruining OWPvP.

Cogbyrn Profile Options #141

0
0
Neutral
If you're vastly superior skill-wise, you'll beat someone 2 levels above you.

The good thing about Tera is that you level up quite quickly. Part of the joy of an MMORPG experience should be interacting with the world using your character, and leveling can be a fun way to learn your class.

If you don't like the fact that gear plays a role while leveling, and that distaste trumps all other enjoyment you get in the game, then just play something else. Like I said before, a casual glance at how the game is structured tells you that a magical change probably isn't coming very soon, so you either deal with it, or you leave.

Anything else makes you seem like you want the world to bend to your will, and spoiler alert:

It doesn't.
TwoFatNuts Profile Options #142

0
0
Neutral
Remiri on 04/13/2012, 07:36 AM - view
I think your style of gameplay is more suited to FPS or RTS. If you can't handle leveling up a toon, then you should and will get your face pushed in by those who do.


Can't handle leveling up? Wow, condescending douche much? Its not the leveling up, its the necessity to be MAX level I take issue with (your solution, not mine).

Cogbyrn on 04/13/2012, 07:53 AM

Anything else makes you seem like you want the world to bend to your will, and spoiler alert:

It doesn't.


Holy crap is everyone who plays this game a massive tool? "Omg you actually bring up game issues on a DISCUSSION BOARD?!?!?!?! Unacceptable!" "Play the game the way it is, pay your monthly fees and be thankful for that!"

This is why gaming is so stagnant. A company gets to do what the hell it wants and there will always be basement-dwelling fanboys swinging from their sac telling them everything they touch is golden.
Remiri Profile Options #143

0
0
Neutral
TwoFatNuts on 04/13/2012, 08:14 AM - view
Remiri on 04/13/2012, 07:36 AM
I think your style of gameplay is more suited to FPS or RTS. If you can't handle leveling up a toon, then you should and will get your face pushed in by those who do.


Can't handle leveling up? Wow, condescending douche much? Its not the leveling up, its the necessity to be MAX level I take issue with (your solution, not mine).

Cogbyrn on 04/13/2012, 07:53 AM

Anything else makes you seem like you want the world to bend to your will, and spoiler alert:

It doesn't.


Holy crap is everyone who plays this game a massive tool? "Omg you actually bring up game issues on a DISCUSSION BOARD?!?!?!?! Unacceptable!" "Play the game the way it is, pay your monthly fees and be thankful for that!"

This is why gaming is so stagnant. A company gets to do what the hell it wants and there will always be basement-dwelling fanboys swinging from their sac telling them everything they touch is golden.


It is like this is your first MMO experience. Max level aside, expect to lose if you are lower level than your opponent, coming onto the forums and complaining that you are losing to people higher level than you makes you look like an ignoramus.

Last I checked, the company created the game and you have the choice to play it or not. Offer your feedback, and make your choice. Don't expect the community to be all flowers and rainbows at your input, and many people including me think you are just spouting nonsense.
Cogbyrn Profile Options #144

0
0
Neutral
TwoFatNuts on 04/13/2012, 08:14 AM - view
Holy crap is everyone who plays this game a massive tool? "Omg you actually bring up game issues on a DISCUSSION BOARD?!?!?!?! Unacceptable!" "Play the game the way it is, pay your monthly fees and be thankful for that!"

This is why gaming is so stagnant. A company gets to do what the hell it wants and there will always be basement-dwelling fanboys swinging from their sac telling them everything they touch is golden.


That isn't what I said, actually. The problem is people saying "They won't change this, so I quit", without even trying to consider the ripple effect it might have on the entire rest of the game. All so some lower level can have a chance against a higher level in some random situation a few times.

EDIT - To clarify, not playing because you disagree with how the game functions is fine. My problem is with people demanding that a company change the game to function how they want so they can play (until, of course, they quit for some other reason). My additional problem is with people using threats like they matter.

And yes, I will gladly be a tool to people who don't even try to think about things. A discussion board should contain discussions. This isn't a complaint board. This isn't a demands board. This is where we hash ideas out and reasonably present solutions that account for more variables than "I want it this way, and if it isn't, I'm leaving for another game."

If you were a company, what would you respond to more positively: quick anger and obnoxious demands, or a level-headed discussion with rational conclusions?

I think an artificial scaling modifier is silly, but I also think the solution to making lower levels have a chance against higher levels is far from just removing this modifier. If you're going to attempt to promote a rational solution, at least try to get to the crux of the problem. You might find that the crux of the problem is core to the game, and if that's the case, your chances of really solving it are very much diminished. In that case, asking them to completely rework core functionality so you're happy makes you look like the spoiled tool.

I'm just the guy calling a spade a spade.
Edited by: Cogbyrn about 1 year ago - Reason: Clarification.
TwoFatNuts Profile Options #145

0
0
Neutral
Remiri on 04/13/2012, 08:28 AM
coming onto the forums and complaining that you are losing to people higher level than you makes you look like an ignoramus.

Last I checked, the company created the game and you have the choice to play it or not. Offer your feedback, and make your choice. Don't expect the community to be all flowers and rainbows at your input, and many people including me think you are just spouting nonsense.


Wow total reading comprehension failure there....
I'm not complaining about losing, I'm complaining that you CANNOT WIN. It's understandable with a large discrepancy, but being 2 levels apart shouldn't make it a totally 1-sided fight. Basically you're saying its OK to only be able to have COMPETITIVE PVP with the 6% of players who happen to be at your exact level at that exact time. Do you have any REAL argument why this is acceptable?

And you're right, I don't have to play here. Nor do the people who will be trying this game for the first time this weekend. Imagine how many are going to be joining up for "Skill based PVP" and find that the only thing that matters is your character level. You better hope they're ok with that since (again, according to you) its not going to change, otherwise you'll be singing the Dev's praises on a deserted server.

Lastly I especially enjoyed you're completely made up ending statement. "many people including me......". Have you been in contact with these people? Do you see this thread flooding with people shouting me down and backing your narrow-minded opinion? or maybe you just pulled this out of your [filtered] to bolster your confidence and help reinforce your strawman argument?
TwoFatNuts Profile Options #146

0
0
Neutral
Cogbyrn on 04/13/2012, 08:53 AM - view
**SNIP**
In that case, asking them to completely rework core functionality so you're happy makes you look like the spoiled tool.
I'm just the guy calling a spade a spade.


I appreciate your willingness to think things through and discuss. Perhaps I was a bit hasty in my retort after being riled up by the previous poster. My apologies.

Also, I believe there is a bit of a misunderstanding. Personally, I dont want to see the modifier removed competely (I agree it would throw off too many other things). I do however think the numbers could be changed so as to keep the advantage monumental with a large level gap but much less noticeable with there only being a difference of say, 1-3 levels.
Cogbyrn Profile Options #147

0
0
Neutral
TwoFatNuts on 04/13/2012, 09:18 AM - view
I appreciate your willingness to think things through and discuss. Perhaps I was a bit hasty in my retort after being riled up by the previous poster. My apologies.

Also, I believe there is a bit of a misunderstanding. Personally, I dont want to see the modifier removed competely (I agree it would throw off too many other things). I do however think the numbers could be changed so as to keep the advantage monumental with a large level gap but much less noticeable with there only being a difference of say, 1-3 levels.


No probs, these forums are filled with too many emotions. I get carried away too.

I think part of the issue is that the level modifier appears to be in the denominator of the equation. Although removing it might help those close to level (1-3, like you said), I think the scaling of gear tiers still could ruin the situation.

If I get a new weapon in the next tier from a story quest, someone could be 1-2 levels below me but at a major disadvantage. Similarly, if you spend some gold (I typed "kinah", deleted it, then tied up a noose. I'll use that after this post) on a dungeon blue, like the Utterdark Blade for Slayers, or get one to drop from CR, you're at an almost 40% attack advantage. I think the story quest 38 blue I had was 605 Attack, utterdark is 889. That's insane, and I don't think removal of the modifier will help those situations.

From the tests I've seen, the level differential really isn't that high. All things accounted for, 3 levels seemed to be 5-10%, so although removing that might help, there are still going to be a number of cases where gear advantages are going to feel like level advantages.

At least that's my take on the situation. They can remove the level modifier, but when things don't change all that drastically, people will still be upset. I think the root of the problem is nested too deep into how they scaled gear and, to balance, health.

It's unfortunate, but at the very least leveling is a pretty quick venture from what I've experienced, even solo.
Kloor Profile Options #148

0
0
Neutral
I was often the higher level myself, Id like this to change so I got a challenge from EVERYONE in the game rather than just 10% of people who were 0-2 levels off. They are slowly removing the pve challenge from the game, why should pvp have to suffer for those who want a challenge from a "skill" based game? Perhaps they should advertise differently.
Dannicus Profile Options #149

0
0
Neutral
Morgan.Manjaw Lvl.60
Mount Tyrannas (PVP)
Castanic Priest
Cogbyrn on 04/13/2012, 07:13 AM - view
The thing is, if they remove this whimsical level scaling modifier from the damage equation, gear tiers are still going to ruin OWPvP, especially from a GvG perspective. If one guild tries to be "competitive GvG", people will say "Well our guild has tons of lowbies and GvG is hardly competitive, meet me in deathmatches/arenas." Then other people will say "Lol, deathmatches, GvG happens in a dynamic OW environment and is a true test of skill."

I'm willing to bet you don't mean this, but it sounds like you're saying, "But gear makes a difference, too, so don't change anything"? The problem is that gear greatly exacerbates the problem that level scaling already creates. If it were only one or the other, we'd be in a much better environment, period.

Those who simply can't deal with it without going diva-mode will leave, and that's the next step I'm looking forward to at this point. To ignore all the other mechanics in the game and say that a simple level scaling modifier (without even recognizing that gear ruins it anyway) is breaking the skill-based aspect of the game is incomprehensible to me. They can't go back and rework all of the gear at this point, because their damage equations and health pools are precariously balanced on it.

It's not impossible to have calculations differ when made against player characters. SW:TOR has an most excellent system for its BGs called Bolster, so in the 10-49 range the only real difference is in available skills and talents that level provides. Gear is heavily marginalized. In City of Heroes/Villains, every ability works differently in PVP, having different calculations and even possible effects. Tera is marketing itself as a skill based game, not gear based. For PVP, the fact that levels AND gear both make such drastic changes to combat effectiveness is arguably false advertising.

All I ask is to look just one step beyond them removing a level scaling modifier, and consider the ripple effect from the perspective of the development company in trying to deal with a level 24 being 1-2 shot by a 32. It might be a lot to ask of many, but it's worth considering. If the answer is unappealing, feel free to leave quietly.
The level modifiers simply shouldn't exist, at least in PVP. A level 10 in SW:TOR can beat a level 49 because of the bolster system. It might not be probable, but it's possible. In a game like Tera where not only does player skill mean something, but the fact that it's an aim-based, skill based game is half its marketing, they would do very well to eliminate and alleviate as many disparities that levels and gear create between players as possible. It's not a skill based game when one level and one tier means the difference between dominating and being dominated. It's just another gear and stat grind only without tab targeting.
Remiri Profile Options #150

0
0
Neutral
TwoFatNuts on 04/13/2012, 09:12 AM - view
Remiri on 04/13/2012, 08:28 AM
coming onto the forums and complaining that you are losing to people higher level than you makes you look like an ignoramus.

Last I checked, the company created the game and you have the choice to play it or not. Offer your feedback, and make your choice. Don't expect the community to be all flowers and rainbows at your input, and many people including me think you are just spouting nonsense.


Wow total reading comprehension failure there....
I'm not complaining about losing, I'm complaining that you CANNOT WIN. It's understandable with a large discrepancy, but being 2 levels apart shouldn't make it a totally 1-sided fight. Basically you're saying its OK to only be able to have COMPETITIVE PVP with the 6% of players who happen to be at your exact level at that exact time. Do you have any REAL argument why this is acceptable?

And you're right, I don't have to play here. Nor do the people who will be trying this game for the first time this weekend. Imagine how many are going to be joining up for "Skill based PVP" and find that the only thing that matters is your character level. You better hope they're ok with that since (again, according to you) its not going to change, otherwise you'll be singing the Dev's praises on a deserted server.

Lastly I especially enjoyed you're completely made up ending statement. "many people including me......". Have you been in contact with these people? Do you see this thread flooding with people shouting me down and backing your narrow-minded opinion? or maybe you just pulled this out of your [filtered] to bolster your confidence and help reinforce your strawman argument?


The real strawman here is this CANNOT WIN statement. You CAN win against someone 1-2 levels higher than you, this is a completely unsupported argument on your part, that falls short given the input right here in this thread. So you build up this argument and focus your energy on defending your built up argument, even though that argument is provably false.

If you were willing to admit that you CAN win against those 1-2 levels higher than you, which is 100% true, then we can start to have a reasonable discussion on the topic. Until then, you are spewing nonsense.