Dannicus
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Given my experiences after hitting 60 with my zerker rolling with my guildie's 60 sorc, it's becoming increasingly and painfully more obvious that there is a major disparity in the level of battlefield control some classes have over others. This isn't a gear issue or player skill issue but a matter of available tools classes have, how they are used, what they do, and the restrictions on them. I'm also not talking about crowd control, but battlefield control, by which I mean the capacity of a class to keep a fight in their favor, the ability for their targets to wrest control of the fight from them, and the effort required to do so for maximum results. Battlefield Control is being defined a class's capacity to maximize contribution to the fight while reducing or eliminating that of their opponents and targets.
It appears painfully obvious to me that four of the eight classes have a drastic amount of battlefield control compared to the other four. Slayers, warriors, lancers, and mystics all have an enormous (by comparison) level of battlefield control when stacked up to berserkers, archers, sorcerers, and priests. There is a massive disparity in the array of tools the former have to keep control of the fight compared to the tools of the latter. When also considering the effort required to keep control (as well as attain optimal performance) alongside the basic function and functional differences of the eight classes, and it becomes clear that either the former are overperforming or the latter are underperforming, depending on how you look at it. Dueling has been one big thing that has lead me to this conclusion, but after also participating in some group PvP, where the game is supposedly balanced around, there is now no doubt in my mind that there needs to be a serious look into PvP balance between classes.
I'm going to use the Berserker and Sorceror classes to make the case for the underperformance of the latter four aforementioned as they're the ones I have the most experience with compared to archer and priest, but from what I've seen and read they are also in similar situations.
Let's look at the tools a Berserker has for battlefield control:
- Flatten: A high chance, slow swinging knockdown
- Dash: +50% move speed on a 25 second cooldown for 10/15 seconds (something tells me these numbers are incorrect)
- Leaping Strike: A leap forward with a long recovery
- Fearsome Shout: 1 minute cooldown 7m PBAoE fear with a ~1.4 sec cast time that lasts about 4 seconds
- Staggering Strike: 1 second stun on 20 second cooldown that spins the target around
- Inescapable Doom: 7m PBAoE snare and evasion/movement skill blocker that lasts about 6 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown
- Evasive Smash: 15 second cooldown evasive roll that can only be used while charging an ability and can then be used again within about 3 seconds for an attack based on charge level reached when used
== Beyond these, Lethal Strike has a short dash forward and thus more potential range than other attacks (ES functions similarly), and we of course have axe block but that's not exactly a tool to keep control of a fight. They also have the highest impact on the most skills compared to other classes. Mocking Shout doesn't exist cuz it does nothing at all in any and every situation =D
Let's look now at a slayer:
- Evasive Roll: 4 second cooldown dodge roll
- Knockdown Strike: A high chance, slow swinging knockdown
- Headlong Rush: 12 second cooldown charge forward that increases attack speed of the next attack used
- Startling Kick: Instant 2ish second stun that flips the slayer backwards slightly on a 20 second cooldown
- Distant Blade: Ranged attack that can hit up to three times (it's a ranged ability on a melee, you better believe it's battlefield control)
- Leaping Strike: Same ability as zerker
- Stunning Backhand: 15 second cooldown 2ish second stun (3 seconds? I cannot remember)
- Dash: Same as berserker
- Exhausting Blow: Increases cooldown time by 50% for 15 seconds against other players, 90 second CD
- Backstab: "Teleport" 10 meters to the target's back and immobilize them, 20 second cooldown
== Beyond this, many slayer abilities trigger faster when using others first, and have decent potential range because of their forward momentum. As well, they have a significant damage ability in Fury Strike when low on HP, becoming incredibly powerful when also using below 50% crystals. There's also their sword's crazy hitboxes (WTF are they, Airbenders!?), but that's for another thread.
Compared to block, the slayer's roll allows them to evade damage yet keep pressure on a target (especially a kiter) very consistently. In practice, Knockdown Strike has more real range than Flatten and is reliably made faster through Headlong Rush VS needing a glyph, high atk speed gear, and Flurry of Blows up (which lasts 15 seconds on a 45 sec CD) to help ensure it hits to then reliably commit to followthroughs (especially when used on a target already knocked down because it can be evaded/blocked in time after retaliation without FoB up). Headlong Rush speeds up the next attack's animation time and is NOT affected by snares. Both classes have the same Dash and Leaping Strike to keep pressure on a target. The zerker's only stun lasts 1 second (without FoB and a glyph, again, Flatten is not a reliable followthrough due to evasion moves) compared to the two stuns that are 2 seconds or more, one of which hits instantly. Slayers have Backstab's "teleport" that immobilizes to set up a knockdown or stun. Berserkers have a fear, but it's a longish castime and is on a one minute cooldown. Our best of the best control ability is Inescapable Doom that can lock down a target to land some big charges, but it's on a TWO minute cooldown. By comparison, the slayer will have been able to backstab 6 times and stun 14 times before ID coolsdown, giving them a total of 20 moves to ensure they keep control of the fight once in range to lay out damage. To go even further, the berserker can still be CC'd and even flinched out of charges made during the effects of ID (and any ability with a cast time, see Staggering Strike and and Fearsome Shout). By comparison, what at all does a berserker have to reliably, consistently, and efficiently keep enemies in range, keep pressure on targets, and ensure maximum damage potential throughout a fight?
Now, let's take a gander at Sorcerer:
- Backstep: 5 sec CD jump back. Shares this cooldown with Teleport Jaunt
- Time Gyre: 60 sec CD lockon immobilize that locks use of evasion abilities. Damage breaks the effect.
- Ice Needle: Slow moving piercing projectile that slows those hit by 20%, 7 sec CD
- Glacial Retreat: Backstep style ability that snares enemies it hits by 70%, 8 second CD
- Teleport Jaunt: 12 second CD teleport
- Mind Blast: Area effect sleep laid in front of the caster on a 30 second CD and a 3.2 second cast time.
- Lightning Trap: 2.2 second castime PBAoE stun trap-ability on a 30 sec CD
- Burst of Celerity: Increases attack speed by 20% for 15 seconds, 25 sec CD (I mention this over the zerker's Flurry of Blows as it's directly tied to their battlefield control given mindblast's high cast time)
- Hail Storm: Places a 6m radius circle of ice that damages every second and stacks up to four 10% movespeed snares to those in its effect for 8 seconds, 26 sec CD
== Beyond this, the sorc also has access to a couple mana steal/drains of varying function and a couple damaging lockons. They also have their mana shield.
Let's see how they stack up against a lancer:
- Shield Barrage: Swing up to two times, likely stunning on the second hit for 2 seconds. 4 sec CD.
- Shield Bash: About 5 second long point-blank stun, 25 sec CD
- Charging Lunge: Charge-forward attack on 10 sec CD
- Leash: Pull a target within 18 meters into melee range, 40/30 second CD
- Menacing Wave: Reduces attack and move speed by 30% to enemies within 7m, 30 sec CD
- Master's Leash: Pull a target again after using Leash, 45 sec CD
- Lockdown Blow: 30% move speed snare, 15 sec CD (against players, combo attack suffices, but still worth mentioning here)
- Chained Leash: Leash up to 6 targets and briefly stun them. 60 sec cd.
== Beyond this, lancers also have a handful of attacks that reduce damage taken when used (with mixed value in PvP situations), a mana shield of their own, group protection buffs, and an atk speed increase of their own. They also have a very high balance and a high impact combo attack (it knocks my zerker down more than a slayer's combos do, it feels like)
After a combo attack snare, Shield Barrage is a very spammable and fairly reliant stun if the second hit goes off, especially when used in conjunction with Shield Bash. Charging Lunge covers about as much distance (I think the same amount) as Teleport Jaunt and is not affected by snares, just like slayer's headlong rush. Time Gyre can be blocked, as can anything used afterwards, not to mention the lancer can still leash three times during its cooldown period (and, if not mistaken, Charging Lunge is considered an attack and not a movement skill, therefor can be used while gyre'd. Someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong). Mindblast can be blocked, even while the lancer is gyre'd. Glacial Retreat has a long recovery time and it's snare can be Charging Lunged out of. Lightning Trap has a warmup period after being laid out and can be blocked to negate the stun (or jumped into to negate the damage, too). Backstep's cooldown sharing with Teleport Jaunt limits escape tools. Furthermore, sorcerers are very easily knocked down while the lancer's combo attack hits numerous times per thrust and appears to have a very high impact ratio compared to all others. Mana Shield does not protect against flinches which happen near constantly from any combo attack, nor does it protect against knockdowns or other CC. In all fairness, what chance does a sorcerer have to gain control when all CC can be blocked, all snares are negated by Charging Lunge, and no escape tool can keep the sorc out of range of leash or Charging Lunge?
Warriors and mystics also have similar levels of battlefield control, from the variety and/or consistency of chase/escape tools, hard CC, and self sustainability (it should be mentioned that Backstab can negate Time Gyre and Death From Above can dodge Mindblast, to quickly switch subjects to the sorc for a sec). By virtue of these disparities, glyphs and crystals only make them bigger, as the enhanced consistency, reliability, or outright damage provided by the latter four's glyphs do not compare to those of the former four. Something needs to be changed. Something needs to happen. I'd rather not see nerfs, I'd MUCH rather see buffs, but of course they always need to be considered. Diminishing returns of some fashion would definitely help. More abilities having an altered function or reduced function against players would also help dramatically. Either way, as it stands right now, there is just too much of a difference in the amount of battlefield control between the classes, from reliability and consistency of CC, to the level of effort required to keep or regain control, to the disparities in capacity to keep up pressure, and to the disparities in chase potency and escape potency.
tl;drSlayers, warriors, lancers, and mystics either have too much or berserkers, sorcerers, archers, and priests have too little in PvP that allows for consistently optimal play.
It appears painfully obvious to me that four of the eight classes have a drastic amount of battlefield control compared to the other four. Slayers, warriors, lancers, and mystics all have an enormous (by comparison) level of battlefield control when stacked up to berserkers, archers, sorcerers, and priests. There is a massive disparity in the array of tools the former have to keep control of the fight compared to the tools of the latter. When also considering the effort required to keep control (as well as attain optimal performance) alongside the basic function and functional differences of the eight classes, and it becomes clear that either the former are overperforming or the latter are underperforming, depending on how you look at it. Dueling has been one big thing that has lead me to this conclusion, but after also participating in some group PvP, where the game is supposedly balanced around, there is now no doubt in my mind that there needs to be a serious look into PvP balance between classes.
I'm going to use the Berserker and Sorceror classes to make the case for the underperformance of the latter four aforementioned as they're the ones I have the most experience with compared to archer and priest, but from what I've seen and read they are also in similar situations.
Let's look at the tools a Berserker has for battlefield control:
- Flatten: A high chance, slow swinging knockdown
- Dash: +50% move speed on a 25 second cooldown for 10/15 seconds (something tells me these numbers are incorrect)
- Leaping Strike: A leap forward with a long recovery
- Fearsome Shout: 1 minute cooldown 7m PBAoE fear with a ~1.4 sec cast time that lasts about 4 seconds
- Staggering Strike: 1 second stun on 20 second cooldown that spins the target around
- Inescapable Doom: 7m PBAoE snare and evasion/movement skill blocker that lasts about 6 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown
- Evasive Smash: 15 second cooldown evasive roll that can only be used while charging an ability and can then be used again within about 3 seconds for an attack based on charge level reached when used
== Beyond these, Lethal Strike has a short dash forward and thus more potential range than other attacks (ES functions similarly), and we of course have axe block but that's not exactly a tool to keep control of a fight. They also have the highest impact on the most skills compared to other classes. Mocking Shout doesn't exist cuz it does nothing at all in any and every situation =D
Let's look now at a slayer:
- Evasive Roll: 4 second cooldown dodge roll
- Knockdown Strike: A high chance, slow swinging knockdown
- Headlong Rush: 12 second cooldown charge forward that increases attack speed of the next attack used
- Startling Kick: Instant 2ish second stun that flips the slayer backwards slightly on a 20 second cooldown
- Distant Blade: Ranged attack that can hit up to three times (it's a ranged ability on a melee, you better believe it's battlefield control)
- Leaping Strike: Same ability as zerker
- Stunning Backhand: 15 second cooldown 2ish second stun (3 seconds? I cannot remember)
- Dash: Same as berserker
- Exhausting Blow: Increases cooldown time by 50% for 15 seconds against other players, 90 second CD
- Backstab: "Teleport" 10 meters to the target's back and immobilize them, 20 second cooldown
== Beyond this, many slayer abilities trigger faster when using others first, and have decent potential range because of their forward momentum. As well, they have a significant damage ability in Fury Strike when low on HP, becoming incredibly powerful when also using below 50% crystals. There's also their sword's crazy hitboxes (WTF are they, Airbenders!?), but that's for another thread.
Compared to block, the slayer's roll allows them to evade damage yet keep pressure on a target (especially a kiter) very consistently. In practice, Knockdown Strike has more real range than Flatten and is reliably made faster through Headlong Rush VS needing a glyph, high atk speed gear, and Flurry of Blows up (which lasts 15 seconds on a 45 sec CD) to help ensure it hits to then reliably commit to followthroughs (especially when used on a target already knocked down because it can be evaded/blocked in time after retaliation without FoB up). Headlong Rush speeds up the next attack's animation time and is NOT affected by snares. Both classes have the same Dash and Leaping Strike to keep pressure on a target. The zerker's only stun lasts 1 second (without FoB and a glyph, again, Flatten is not a reliable followthrough due to evasion moves) compared to the two stuns that are 2 seconds or more, one of which hits instantly. Slayers have Backstab's "teleport" that immobilizes to set up a knockdown or stun. Berserkers have a fear, but it's a longish castime and is on a one minute cooldown. Our best of the best control ability is Inescapable Doom that can lock down a target to land some big charges, but it's on a TWO minute cooldown. By comparison, the slayer will have been able to backstab 6 times and stun 14 times before ID coolsdown, giving them a total of 20 moves to ensure they keep control of the fight once in range to lay out damage. To go even further, the berserker can still be CC'd and even flinched out of charges made during the effects of ID (and any ability with a cast time, see Staggering Strike and and Fearsome Shout). By comparison, what at all does a berserker have to reliably, consistently, and efficiently keep enemies in range, keep pressure on targets, and ensure maximum damage potential throughout a fight?
Now, let's take a gander at Sorcerer:
- Backstep: 5 sec CD jump back. Shares this cooldown with Teleport Jaunt
- Time Gyre: 60 sec CD lockon immobilize that locks use of evasion abilities. Damage breaks the effect.
- Ice Needle: Slow moving piercing projectile that slows those hit by 20%, 7 sec CD
- Glacial Retreat: Backstep style ability that snares enemies it hits by 70%, 8 second CD
- Teleport Jaunt: 12 second CD teleport
- Mind Blast: Area effect sleep laid in front of the caster on a 30 second CD and a 3.2 second cast time.
- Lightning Trap: 2.2 second castime PBAoE stun trap-ability on a 30 sec CD
- Burst of Celerity: Increases attack speed by 20% for 15 seconds, 25 sec CD (I mention this over the zerker's Flurry of Blows as it's directly tied to their battlefield control given mindblast's high cast time)
- Hail Storm: Places a 6m radius circle of ice that damages every second and stacks up to four 10% movespeed snares to those in its effect for 8 seconds, 26 sec CD
== Beyond this, the sorc also has access to a couple mana steal/drains of varying function and a couple damaging lockons. They also have their mana shield.
Let's see how they stack up against a lancer:
- Shield Barrage: Swing up to two times, likely stunning on the second hit for 2 seconds. 4 sec CD.
- Shield Bash: About 5 second long point-blank stun, 25 sec CD
- Charging Lunge: Charge-forward attack on 10 sec CD
- Leash: Pull a target within 18 meters into melee range, 40/30 second CD
- Menacing Wave: Reduces attack and move speed by 30% to enemies within 7m, 30 sec CD
- Master's Leash: Pull a target again after using Leash, 45 sec CD
- Lockdown Blow: 30% move speed snare, 15 sec CD (against players, combo attack suffices, but still worth mentioning here)
- Chained Leash: Leash up to 6 targets and briefly stun them. 60 sec cd.
== Beyond this, lancers also have a handful of attacks that reduce damage taken when used (with mixed value in PvP situations), a mana shield of their own, group protection buffs, and an atk speed increase of their own. They also have a very high balance and a high impact combo attack (it knocks my zerker down more than a slayer's combos do, it feels like)
After a combo attack snare, Shield Barrage is a very spammable and fairly reliant stun if the second hit goes off, especially when used in conjunction with Shield Bash. Charging Lunge covers about as much distance (I think the same amount) as Teleport Jaunt and is not affected by snares, just like slayer's headlong rush. Time Gyre can be blocked, as can anything used afterwards, not to mention the lancer can still leash three times during its cooldown period (and, if not mistaken, Charging Lunge is considered an attack and not a movement skill, therefor can be used while gyre'd. Someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong). Mindblast can be blocked, even while the lancer is gyre'd. Glacial Retreat has a long recovery time and it's snare can be Charging Lunged out of. Lightning Trap has a warmup period after being laid out and can be blocked to negate the stun (or jumped into to negate the damage, too). Backstep's cooldown sharing with Teleport Jaunt limits escape tools. Furthermore, sorcerers are very easily knocked down while the lancer's combo attack hits numerous times per thrust and appears to have a very high impact ratio compared to all others. Mana Shield does not protect against flinches which happen near constantly from any combo attack, nor does it protect against knockdowns or other CC. In all fairness, what chance does a sorcerer have to gain control when all CC can be blocked, all snares are negated by Charging Lunge, and no escape tool can keep the sorc out of range of leash or Charging Lunge?
Warriors and mystics also have similar levels of battlefield control, from the variety and/or consistency of chase/escape tools, hard CC, and self sustainability (it should be mentioned that Backstab can negate Time Gyre and Death From Above can dodge Mindblast, to quickly switch subjects to the sorc for a sec). By virtue of these disparities, glyphs and crystals only make them bigger, as the enhanced consistency, reliability, or outright damage provided by the latter four's glyphs do not compare to those of the former four. Something needs to be changed. Something needs to happen. I'd rather not see nerfs, I'd MUCH rather see buffs, but of course they always need to be considered. Diminishing returns of some fashion would definitely help. More abilities having an altered function or reduced function against players would also help dramatically. Either way, as it stands right now, there is just too much of a difference in the amount of battlefield control between the classes, from reliability and consistency of CC, to the level of effort required to keep or regain control, to the disparities in capacity to keep up pressure, and to the disparities in chase potency and escape potency.
tl;drSlayers, warriors, lancers, and mystics either have too much or berserkers, sorcerers, archers, and priests have too little in PvP that allows for consistently optimal play.
Edited by: Dannicus
12 months ago
- Reason: Added a couple things and forgot-to-mentions