By default you have about 1sec of camera lag where everything still fires in the direction of your camera after a backstab. You can fix this by plugging in and setting up a game controller. It opens a previously unavailable option that lets you do moves in the direction your character is facing. Most people will likely not have this enabled though, so double stun reduction earrings means you normally won't be stunlocked by warriors off of backstab.
None of that changes the fact that those abilities tend to suck as gap closers.
Fact of the matter remains that they still can be used as such, and effectively, while also being coupled with a variety of other uses and consistent utility.
I addressed this in an earlier post when I said that the charges cannot be stopped short of blowing evasive roll. If they do blow evasive roll... gg, now they're down a charge and a dodge, and the only thing you've used is backstep.
Do you really think a good slayer is going to break headlong with evasive roll and open himself up to every single lockon that a sorc has? Not likely.
Still has backstab. And while we're at it, so does a warrior, and lancers still have three leashes while being able to stop their lunge without blowing a defensive cooldown.
How are you going to jump when you're slept? Remember, it's a straight transition from mindblast -> lightning trap. No gaps.
If Mindblast went off, especially when considering stun reduction stats that everyone is now getting, taking the time to add at best 2 to 3 seconds of stun maybe rather than lining up an overcharged void pulse or following through with a fireblast that WILL hit is, quite frankly, a poor use of MB. MB will last long enough to go through the rotation for a fireblast or void pulse. You can't guarantee that with a lightning trap that will at best damage as much as a magma bomb.
What does the lightning trap truly add that MB hasn't already accomplished? The time it would take to set up between the prime and the end of the stun, everything going perfectly, wouldn't be enough to reliably fireblast, only a void pulse, and maybe a couple hailstorm ticks.
Like I said, you have 7 seconds after casting ice needle. You don't need to use mindblast immediately and the buff doesn't go away if you use abilities other than mindblast first. Make the predictable a little less predictable.
Mindblast cannot be made fast enough to overcome the reaction speed of most half decent gamers, let alone people who really know how to play. Not only does the ice needle suggest that an MB is coming, priming their reaction, even with every cooldown and max atk speed gear it's not going to land fast enough to catch players consistently.
Here's another TF2 example: A spy's backstab used to kill its target provided the animation played so long as the target was hit. This lead to "facestabs" where a player would turn into a spy whose backstab hadn't yet connected, yet would still be insta-gibbed. Obviously, this was aggravating to a lot of people, because it gave them the perception that they should not have died. This was changed. Spies then could have the entire backstab animation go off and never actually get the backstab and kill because it was no longer basing it off of where the spy and target was at the time of stab, but where the hit landed. This now lead to a major problem with spies such that achieving what should have been kills were becoming deaths. This was finally changed to the current iteration in which the backstab animation plays at a faster rate and the hit is instant. They changed the backstab mechanics from an unfair perception on the part of its victims, to an inconsistency issue on the part of the spy, to the reliable iteration it has now.
All we ask for is reliability and consistency. Berserkers and sorcerers (and arguably archers, mayhaps priests to an extent) simply do not have the level of reliability and consistency they should have right now. No matter how many strategies you put out, no matter how many people say "I do fine", none of that changes the fact that other DPS classes are more self reliant, more consistent, and are notably more effective given equal effort and skill in far more situations.
I addressed most of your other points several posts back - specifically regarding the usefulness of lightning trap + hailstorm (mostly against blocking classes that turtle), and regarding leashing or backstabbing after a charge. Feel free to go back and read that if you care to.
As for this -
No matter how many strategies you put out, no matter how many people say "I do fine", none of that changes the fact that other DPS classes are more self reliant, more consistent, and are notably more effective given equal effort and skill in far more situations.
What other DPS classes? You mentioned zerkers, sorcs, and "arguably" archers as lacking. That leaves warriors and slayers. Warrior consistency, reliability, and effectiveness takes a huge dive with stun duration reduction, which everyone already has or is going to have (sorc tears aren't even close to the warrior tears over those earrings) - not to mention that warrior effectiveness falls off even more in larger fights, so they're probably gonna be wishing they were sorcs or zerkers once 10v10 bg's, 15v15 bg's, and vanarchy GvG's come around. That leaves slayers. One class.
So, slayers probably have a bit too much going for them, which is something that I've already agreed with. However, it's less of a class problem and more of a game problem - some core game mechanics simply exaggerate class disparities. Specifically, it's a KD chain problem. If it was impossible to RNG chain knockdowns over and over and over again on a single player, things would be a lot more manageable.
Solution? Fix the RNG.
Make knockdowns intentional. Reduce or remove resist chance across the board - or offer a stat on gear which reduces the chance for your spells to be resisted, up to some sort of cap which grants you a 100% land rate *unless* mitigated by some kind of +resist buff (also intentional).
Suddenly, ranged classes become more viable because their control becomes more consistent and reliable, while melee control - which currently revolves heavily around RNG - takes a hit.
Simple. No need to even touch the classes themselves - not that some touching here and there would hurt, but it's not necessary to provide the sort of reliability you're asking for. The otherwise stellar combat in this game is just [filtered] over by a dumb RNG system - that's the biggest problem.
I addressed most of your other points several posts back - specifically regarding the usefulness of lightning trap + hailstorm (mostly against blocking classes that turtle), and regarding leashing or backstabbing after a charge. Feel free to go back and read that if you care to.
And I've responded regarding your points, but you've not made any counters to the arguments that everything you describe as an effective strat or argue diminishes those skills' value is actually supporting this thread's foundational claim.
No matter how many strategies you put out, no matter how many people say "I do fine", none of that changes the fact that other DPS classes are more self reliant, more consistent, and are notably more effective given equal effort and skill in far more situations.
What other DPS classes? You mentioned zerkers, sorcs, and "arguably" archers as lacking. That leaves warriors and slayers. Warrior consistency, reliability, and effectiveness takes a huge dive with stun duration reduction, which everyone already has or is going to have (sorc tears aren't even close to the warrior tears over those earrings) - not to mention that warrior effectiveness falls off even more in larger fights, so they're probably gonna be wishing they were sorcs or zerkers once 10v10 bg's, 15v15 bg's, and vanarchy GvG's come around. That leaves slayers. One class.
It was not my intention to forgo the potential need for priests to receive some bumps nor ignore the lancer by saying "DPS classes". As for stun duration reduction, Staggering Strike is the zerker's only stun. It lasts ONE second. It's our only consistent CC and isn't even enough to land a glyphed flatten without FoB or a ton of atk speed gear. To the warriors, I say, "Welcome to my world". They STILL have more tools and utility, and ALL melee begins losing value in larger fights because of how quickly they'll be bursted down if they Rambo or do something stupid.
Also, archer's are quite possibly the most player skill reliant class because their ability to do well weighs very heavily on a player's ability to aim, whereas every other class is much less precision-reliant (though zerkers rather are, as well, but suffer from other issues that overblow our precision requirement). They might not really need much of anything at all because they're the hardest class to do the best with due entirely to the fact that they must aim perfectly or they don't cause damage. That doesn't change the fact that they DO suffer from similar issues to sorcs in the kiting/evasion VS chase/lockdown disparity. They just have the advantage that, if you're good and a little lucky (though I'd still argue shouldn't require THIS much precision to pull off given their toolset), you can still charge your attacks and hit for a lot of damage because they're instant and useable on the move while also being ranged. The only thing the zerker has is the on the move advantage. Sorc has nothing.
So, slayers probably have a bit too much going for them, which is something that I've already agreed with. However, it's less of a class problem and more of a game problem - some core game mechanics simply exaggerate class disparities. Specifically, it's a KD chain problem. If it was impossible to RNG chain knockdowns over and over and over again on a single player, things would be a lot more manageable.
Solution? Fix the RNG.
Make knockdowns intentional. Reduce or remove resist chance across the board - or offer a stat on gear which reduces the chance for your spells to be resisted, up to some sort of cap which grants you a 100% land rate *unless* mitigated by some kind of +resist buff (also intentional).
Ok, so a knockdown chain fix comes. What do berserkers get in return for the only thing they actually have going for them that--and here's the whole point of the damn thread again--cannot as reliably and consistently pull off as other classes?
As for the resist stats, no. Do something else. Reflect gear is already a necessary stat. We need to avoid those at all costs or people become gimped without them for very stupid, unfun, unbalanced reasons.
Suddenly, ranged classes become more viable because their control becomes more consistent and reliable, while melee control - which currently revolves heavily around RNG - takes a hit.
Again, I ask what berserkers would be getting in return. Unless ID is suddenly a 30 second or less cooldown, we'd have even less than we already have which is very, very little for far too much effort by comparison to others.
Simple. No need to even touch the classes themselves - not that some touching here and there would hurt, but it's not necessary to provide the sort of reliability you're asking for. The otherwise stellar combat in this game is just [filtered] over by a dumb RNG system - that's the biggest problem.
There are numerous issues with its PvP system as it stands period, most notably being that gear (and levels while I'm at it) has as much of an impact that it does. The advantages of +9 over +0 should only be in the enigmatic stats and damage needs to be normalized somehow, based somehow off of tier, rarity, and/or the class ability itself and the class/armor type being damaged. More skill and less RNG would be nice, but that's not likely going to happen, especially since gear disparity trumping skill still has yet to be addressed.
I think they'd be better off first of all bringing all classes' glyphs to the level of the Slayer's, then adding PvP-specific mechanics and function to a variety of skills that are overtuned or undertuned when used against players. Then, get rid of the reflect and get rid of the stun duration reduction stat because lots of abilities with CC and CC potential would be adjusted by the PvP-specific mechanics. Gear/Level disparity needs a real serious looking into with it trumping player skill as much as it does, but at least if those other issues, as well as those which are class specific are touched upon, we'd be at a fine spot.
Kinda getting tired of hearing this. We don't have 3 leashes. We have 1 leash with a follow up leash. The second is only used as a chain skill after the first, most often used after a miss or resist.
The "3rd" leash does not bring people to you, it brings other enemies to the guy you hit with it. It is not an effective way to counter "gap makers" like people in here keep trying to say. It is good for a half second stun though.
Kinda getting tired of hearing this. We don't have 3 leashes. We have 1 leash with a follow up leash. The second is only used as a chain skill after the first, most often used after a miss or resist.
The "3rd" leash does not bring people to you, it brings other enemies to the guy you hit with it. It is not an effective way to counter "gap makers" like people in here keep trying to say. It is good for a half second stun though.
So, what you're saying is... that lancers have three leashes... The first leash, a fallback leash, and a setup leash.
Kinda getting tired of hearing this. We don't have 3 leashes. We have 1 leash with a follow up leash. The second is only used as a chain skill after the first, most often used after a miss or resist.
The "3rd" leash does not bring people to you, it brings other enemies to the guy you hit with it. It is not an effective way to counter "gap makers" like people in here keep trying to say. It is good for a half second stun though.
So, what you're saying is... that lancers have three leashes... The first leash, a fallback leash, and a setup leash.
... k...
He is using them in the context of 3 separate leashes which would act as counters to gap makers. Not the case.
The first "two" is really just one with a second chance if you miss or fail. If you land the first, the "second" is not needed and cant be used on it's own in the first place. The third like I already said, does not bring the target to the Lancer.
Firstly, I just wanted to put this out there for you and Vunak, Dannicus - I recorded a quick demo to show that you can, in fact, land a vp/hailstorm/fb combo off of a lightning trap (off of a mindblast) on a target with full stun duration reduction -
Relevant glyphs include 17% increased fireblast cast speed and 50% attack speed on celerity. The trap goes off right as the void pulse hits and the fireblast lands right as the trap expires.
It's not something you'll want to use every single time, but there are situations where it's better than a straight vp/fb combo off of mindblast. In either case, I just posted that to show that it's possible - despite claims to the contrary.
So, what you're saying is... that lancers have three leashes... The first leash, a fallback leash, and a setup leash.
... k...
I guess his point is that master leash is not an actual gap closer since it doesn't bring the person you hit it with to you. Considering that you've been talking about lancers having 3 leashes in the context of gap closing ability, his point is valid.
Gear/Level disparity needs a real serious looking into with it trumping player skill as much as it does, but at least if those other issues, as well as those which are class specific are touched upon, we'd be at a fine spot.
I agree. Gear is a problem. RNG is a problem. Glyphs are a problem (I swear some of them must have been designed with only PvE in mind). I also agree that damage reflect is a complete garbage stat and needs to be removed from the game entirely.
I also agree that zerkers might need something to fill the gap if chain knockdowns are removed, since it's usually hard enough for them to start that chain to begin with. I'm not a game designer and I haven't sat down and thought all this stuff through the way a game designer would - I'm just throwing out ideas. I'm sure something can be done to fill that gap.
Firstly, I just wanted to put this out there for you and Vunak, Dannicus - I recorded a quick demo to show that you can, in fact, land a vp/hailstorm/fb combo off of a lightning trap (off of a mindblast) on a target with full stun duration reduction -
Relevant glyphs include 17% increased fireblast cast speed and 50% attack speed on celerity. The trap goes off right as the void pulse hits and the fireblast lands right as the trap expires.
It's not something you'll want to use every single time, but there are situations where it's better than a straight vp/fb combo off of mindblast. In either case, I just posted that to show that it's possible - despite claims to the contrary.
Dannicus on 06/20/2012, 07:16 PM
So, what you're saying is... that lancers have three leashes... The first leash, a fallback leash, and a setup leash.
... k...
I guess his point is that master leash is not an actual gap closer since it doesn't bring the person you hit it with to you. Considering that you've been talking about lancers having 3 leashes in the context of gap closing ability, his point is valid.
Gear/Level disparity needs a real serious looking into with it trumping player skill as much as it does, but at least if those other issues, as well as those which are class specific are touched upon, we'd be at a fine spot.
I agree. Gear is a problem. RNG is a problem. Glyphs are a problem (I swear some of them must have been designed with only PvE in mind). I also agree that damage reflect is a complete garbage stat and needs to be removed from the game entirely.
I also agree that zerkers might need something to fill the gap if chain knockdowns are removed, since it's usually hard enough for them to start that chain to begin with. I'm not a game designer and I haven't sat down and thought all this stuff through the way a game designer would - I'm just throwing out ideas. I'm sure something can be done to fill that gap.
Awesome, a post I can fully agree with you on.
Oh I did do some testing myself with the Lightning Trap rotation you mentioned. Yeah even with the Stun Reduction gear, you can get the rotation off. But holy [filtered] do you have to be quick. I did find it to not be a reliable rotation though it gets resisted so much it most of the time fked me instead of helped me.
I've got all my abilities on my bar etc. and was thinking about trying out a few other things, whats your take on reincorporating Arcane into the mix with glyph of the slick and the glyph that increases its power or whatever by 25%. Think that could get some use?
I mean as it stand right now, I kite and kite throwing a few magma's, Flame barrages and HS out until my CD's come back up. I would attempt a ice needled celerity mindblast but it can be difficult to time right if your fighting someone with leaping strike or dodge..charge etc.
I was fighting a slayer earlier today. Was beasting them because they weren't utilizing all there skills (didnt use HT once and was backstabbing right out the gate). I gave them some pointers, helped with the HT (it really does have a fked up hitbox) etc. She was starting to get the hang of it rotations down, utilizing all her attacks and boom im dead.
Distant blades is my bane against slayers....It does 3-5k dmg per tick noncrit. She crit me a few times with it for 10k. My FB hits for anywhere between 18-25k depending on my positioning, and my hp. Distant has a 10 sec CD... what am I supposed to do against that. Thats 9-15k non crit every 10 seconds. Its got a 14 meter range... I dont even want to know whats gonna happen when all these slayers pick up the Overpower Stun glyph... holy [filtered]...
I think a Slayer could kill me with just Headlong rush... Distant blade... headlong rush...distant blade...every 10 seconds. Dodging my Flamebarrages in between and saving backstab until I gyre.
~~~~~~~
Edit:
If they remove the chain knockdown. I suggest removing the mana cost for Dash, Zerkers only. Sorry Slayers you guys have more then enough as it stands. Give the Zerkers a little bit more for closing the gap, couple it with there Dash glyphs and they would be able to keep dash up just about 24/7.
Might seem a little much, but I think if they take out all the stupid RNG it would fit right in.
I did find it to not be a reliable rotation though it gets resisted so much it most of the time fked me instead of helped me.
That is true.
Lightning trap seems to get resisted pretty often and, because of how quickly you have to do this combo, you can't really afford to wait to see if the stun lands. Thanks to that, if the trap resists, you're gonna have void pulse, hailstorm, and fireblast on cooldown with little to show for it.
If the trap does land though, it's potentially a much more dangerous combo than a simple mindblast -> vp/fb. I guess it's a risk/reward thing.
I've got all my abilities on my bar etc. and was thinking about trying out a few other things, whats your take on reincorporating Arcane into the mix with glyph of the slick and the glyph that increases its power or whatever by 25%. Think that could get some use?
I personally don't see any use for arcane pulse in PvP. This is my ideal glyph build -
There's no room for arcane pulse glyphs and there absolutely isn't anything that I would be willing to give up in order to get those glyphs.
I think a Slayer could kill me with just Headlong rush... Distant blade... headlong rush...distant blade...every 10 seconds. Dodging my Flamebarrages in between and saving backstab until I gyre.
I think for slayers you just have to get a lucky lightning trap on a backstab, or just get a lightning trap off somehow in general... with them already on top of it - then mindblast off of that and do your vp/fb to put them behind. Balance on your armor helps a lot here and if you already have celerity up it should be possible to get the trap down on a backstab before they can land a startling kick or a knockdown, but you have to be really fast. Even if you do get knocked down, you should be able to retaliate and mindblast before the trap stun expires.
If you use the glacial retreat glyph that links to lightning trap (I do), you can make the trap an almost instant cast which can catch slayers off guard sometimes. Like for instance they might headlong rush at you after you glacial, right into a super quick trap.
Save stoneskin for backstab, usually.
It's a hard fight either way against good players, especially considering that you're usually also fighting against RNG trap resists.