Rewarding PvP In The Open World

Dannicus Profile Options #1

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Morgan.Manjaw Lvl.60
Mount Tyrannas (PVP)
Castanic Priest
The following is an argument for material reward to most reliably and most readily be provided through Open World PvP as opposed to instanced Battlegrounds. Along with the argument is a suggestion on how to make it work and what it will provide based on what the rules the different server types currently allow. As well, this will offer suggestions of what Battlegrounds should ultimately provide (beyond the Vanarch system). If EME intends for rewards to be provided through PvP, this is what I recommend.

Players are fickle. When it comes to material based rewards in games, which is rather foundational in the design of the typical RPG, the easiest and quickest route to a material goal is often the one taken at the expense of all others. Depending on the game's design, whether it's single- versus multi- player, and then whether it's merely online versus a full fledged MMO, in most cases players will discover the route to the most reward in the shortest amount of time. There may be multiple ways to reach the material goal sought after, but, just like lightning, many players will take the way of least resistance. This Least Resistance Mentality as I'll call it is further exacerbated when the easiest way is also the most profitable or the only way, even if the gameplay involved in it is readily available elsewhere. This Least Resistance Mentality, when it comes to the MMORPG genre, is especially prominent in instanced PvP. Having gone by many names: Warzones, Battlegrounds, Arenas; in the end, Instanced PvP is quite possibly the single biggest contributor to the LRM because it rewards mere participation above all else.

LRM is in and of itself not a bad thing. If I can make 100k gold in one hour one way or 100k gold in half an hour another way, the incentive is there that I'll spend that hour for the 200k. The problem is twofold: One is when the reward does not match the effort, especially if both ways are the same basic activity; and Two, most particularly, is when some aspect of the game's mechanics, design, and world is left by the wayside because it isn't as rewarding as quickly or as easily as an alternative aspect. Instanced PvP (as I'll simply refer to as BGs from now on) in far too many implementations as we've seen has done both. In the first case, the reward is based on merely participating in the BG, thus de-incentivizing effort and the competition between players BGs are intended to promote. In the second, it kills off every other kind of PvP, in particular Open World PvP, when OWPvP is often intended to occur by design and by the developers' own admittance.

To ensure the validity and value behind OWPvP, to provide reward for effort and keep focus on competition, to incentivize player skill and participation, and to allow BGs to still be viable alternatives to players who may prefer them specifically, I propose this: Killing players gives "PvP Loot".

So long as you would not gain infamy for killing a player, you will earn special PvP loot. How much loot a player can drop does not matter between being an outlaw and not being an outlaw unless the killed player has infamy. The corpse left behind can provide loot for all players who participated in killing the player and contribution would be based upon damage done, damage healed, and damage taken/blocked up to a maximum based on either or both the level of the defeated player and that of the victorious player. This would be additive and individualized and not split between all participating. This PvP loot would primarily come in the form of special tokens that would be tradable to a new vendor for items similar to Lucky Eggs. Each piece of loot corresponds to a special currency that a player could trade in for crafting boxes, armor boxes, consumable boxes, weapon boxes, and so on and so forth from the PvP vendor. Basically, if it can drop in the open world, you can trade for a box that might have what you're looking for. All loot would be generic and stacks on itself, so the Tier 1 loot would stack with itself, tier 2 would stack with itself, and so on. The higher the tier, the more currency it's worth. The higher the level of the defeated player, the more likely the pvp loot will be matched to their level's tier, though it's still possible to get lower. Furthermore, you can never get tiers higher than your level can access, so if Tier 4 starts at level 26 and you're level 25, you can only loot tiers 1 through 3. Each tier can drop four types of PvP loot, corresponding to gear colors: White, green, blue, and gold. I suggest that they be Fingers, Hands, Ears, and Heads.

The currency would correspond to rarity of the let's just call them PvP Boxes, and higher tier/level boxes cost more of a certain currency. The higher your contribution to a kill, the better chance you have of getting gear tradable for rarer currency. The currency, lets call them Marks, are color coded just like gear: White, Green, Blue, and Gold Marks. White loot trades in for whites, green for green, and so on. Each currency will be capped at a certain amount, obviously to be determined by EME, but for sake of argument I'll suggest 100K white, 10k green, 1k blue, and 100 gold.

PvP Boxes cost Marks based on type of box and tier of box. A "General Consumable" box might cost 5 Whites or 1 Green for a low tier, or 200 whites or 30 greens for a high tier. A "Lucky Armor" box could give any type of armor and may cost 500 whites for low tier and 50k for a high tier, or for the Lucky Gold Armor box you might spend 5 for a low tier and 40 for a high tier. If you are seeking class specific equipment, though, the prices will go much higher. The highest tier boxes of class specific gold weapons and armors might cost a full 100 gold marks each.

Contributing to killing players with Infamy (unless you yourself have Infamy) or players from an enemy guild will usually provide extra loot. As well, killing an enemy guild member who is more than 5 levels under you also provides loot, but the amount is limited and only whites are provided since this would constitute an Infamy gain kill. If a guild wins a GvG, each individual player's total contribution, additive to all contributions made against the enemy guild's members, provides a mark bag. The higher one's contribution, the bigger the bag and more kinds of marks it will provide. No bag can provide more than, let's say for sake of numbers, half of a single mark and more than a collective quarter of all marks (meaning it can't give more than 27,775 marks). To de-incentivize win swapping, the time a GvG lasts will also factor in, such that the shorter the war the smaller the winners' bags can be, possibly even resulting in no bags at all if it ends too fast. Wars that end in draws provide no bags for either side. As well, contribution of the enemy guild becomes a factor. Complete stomps might provide no bags at all for the winners, even if the war lasted for a long time. In other words, the longer AND closer a GvG is, the more each participating player's contribution is used to determine the bags the winners can get. If the collective contribution of each guild is close and the GvG lasts a long time, the biggest bag will be available to the winners.

So, now we come to the rewards of the Battlegrounds. OWPvP, specifically GvG, needs to be the primary way to earn Marks next to Server VS Server. The amount of marks that can be earned in a single BG are capped at (for sake of example) 5k whites, 500 greens, 50 blues, and 5 golds. Furthermore, similar to GvG, the longer and closer a match is, the more likely the cap will be reached, such that only the longest and closest matches can provide gold marks. Finally, only the winning team can get blue and gold marks. This cap is also individual, so if you do not contribute much to the BG, even if it was a very long and close match AND your team won, you might only get a handful of whites and greens if you spent most of it AFK or otherwise not contributing. Contribution for BGs, as with OWPvP, would be additive of an aggregation of all scores that BGs will tally, such as damage done, kills made, healing done, objective points, etc.. Finally, there are to be NO, ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE OR GOLD REWARDS from Battlegrounds whatsoever. It should be noted now that there is no experience or gold reward for OWPvP or GvG as part of this PvP Loot and Mark system, either, just so you know.

Now, it should be clear to everyone that this idea is intending for OWPvP and GvG to be the primary ways and most reliable ways to earn marks. As well, this system does NOT have PvP Specific gear at all, but instead provides boxes for gear that can be earned through PvE means. The intention of the mark caps and box costs is to correlate player skill, effort, participation, and time investment with reward. By having all manners of boxes, from gear, to consumables, to enchanting equipment, to crafting materials, and so on, all players can supplement their PvE game or, should they so choose to, feasably become PvP-centric players at end game.

And that is my suggestion and argument regarding rewards for open world PvP. I hope you enjoyed.


TL;DRKilling players >= 5 levels below you gives tiered PvP loot, up to a tier your level can access, that is traded in for PvP currency called "Marks". Marks are color coded, just like gear, and are capped: 100k for white, 10k for green, 1k for blue, 100 for golds. The more a player contributes to a fight, the better their loot can be. Higher tier loot provides more marks. GvG and outlaws with infamy results in more reward. Contribution of BOTH guilds and the length of the GvG may result in the winning guild members being mark bags based on their individual contribution to the whole war. Battlegrounds, similarly, require individual participation and close, long matches to earn more marks, and BG mark amounts are capped. Also, only BG winners can get blue and gold marks. Marks can be traded for "PvP Boxes" that give consumables, gear, enchanting equipment, crafting materials, and anything else attainable through PvE, with higher tiered boxes costing more marks.
Edited by: Dannicus about 1 year ago - Reason: Added "Too Long; Didn't Read"
Vunak Profile Options #2

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I agree with the first part of this post. But I don't agree with the rest.

Rewarding BG's will kill OW PvP, it won't matter. Its too accessible compared to other forms. Rewarding GvG is to easily exploitable, especially with zerg guilds that will have more then one guild with the cap being 300. Zerg guilds will just wage war on there own guilds.

I've said it in all the threads so far about PvP and rewards. Keep rewards out of OW PvP and BG's alike. Leave the rewards to the Rifts/Nexus system until they implement SvS, and then switch the rewards over to SvS.

Its the only form of PvP that is not selfish in its implementation. BG's are selfish, people do them for gear. OW PvP people do for there own reasons. SvS people may do for selfish reasons, but no matter in the end they are assisting there entire server, whether they like it or not.
Dannicus Profile Options #3

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Morgan.Manjaw Lvl.60
Mount Tyrannas (PVP)
Castanic Priest
I'm more than all for Server VS Server being the only real way to get anything. Still, it seems that EME wants to give gear and such for PVP activities. Therefor, we need to try and give them ideas and suggestions that would be acceptable.

The idea behind Contribution in my suggestion is meant to severely limit kill trading and win trading. Without active, consistent, and clear contribution by a player in a fight, they will never reliably get even blue marks, let alone golds. Furthermore, with the way I imagine mark rewards in BGs to work, capping would be rare and most wins would not give more than 10 blue and 1 gold.

I should have mentioned that I believe PvE should be the most reliable way to earn gear. If it takes an average of 1 hour of PvE to get something good (i.e. a gold weapon), it should take 2-3 hours of OWPvP and 4-6 hours of BG to earn the marks for an equivalent PvP box. PvP becomes supplementary, but the option is there for those who'd want to focus entirely on PvP. Keeping in mind that the highest tier boxes would cost nearly mark cap if not actually cost mark cap, with a well implemented Contribution system, and by rewarding PvP with PvE loot, this could ensure that no player feels left out of end game progression due to gameplay choice, that the PvE crowd isn't at some arbitrary advantage because some PvPers don't like raiding, and that all game aspects (PvE, Crafting, and PvP) are integrated together and not split from each other into separate end games.
Karyudo Profile Options #4

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As you say in your post players have a "Least Resistance Mentality" in your system for OWPvP rewards the path of least resistance is for me to drop guild with my guild members wearing no armor and pk them for ungodly fast kills and huge rewards for doing so. Then rotate so everyone gets free pvp gear on the fast track. This is the major problem with adding any kind of reward to an FFA pvp system, it is very easy to exploit and adding in safe guards against it that are strong enough to stop the exploits ruins the point of the system for everyone else.

Big guilds get full top teir pvp gear in days, small guilds and anyone not exploiting the system is punished.
Vunak Profile Options #5

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Pretty much. If its exploitable players will exploit it. BG's are to accessible and will kill OW PvP if you reward it. Ow PvP is too exploitable in any form. Kill trading. GvG. Kill trading.

SvS is the best and easiest solution for implementation of a PvP reward system without being exploitable. You already see rivalries forming between the three PvP servers. So you know all three are going to fight for control. Add in buffs. XP, Drop Rates, Increases in Enchanting Chances etc. Opening up extra bosses in Instances, whatever.

But BG's are to accessible and static. People know that if they put in this specific amount of time, there reward is going to be this much. OW PvP is random. So you can't place a certain time frame on it to be equivalent to time frames in BG's. You could go one day getting a massive amount of kills and rewards. While the next you find a wasteland and only kill a few.
Edited by: Vunak about 1 year ago
Slayven Profile Options #6

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Whats funny is you guys think that any of this matters....they seem to have no response for this issue atleast nothing that i have heard and peps have been talking about this [filtered] since beta 1...still nothing. Would be nice to actually get some responses back from the Devs on thier plans to fix the risk/reward system and end game content new dougens are not end game content!!! Yay another dougen I honestly wish some one would think out side the box....its like they want to keep you in the dark because there is no plans to fix it, they just want you to buy the game hopeing that, what your saying is being listend too, but its not. To be honest i would have already bought the game if I knew about some of these issuse but as the devs go,they dont seem to care about things like this...
Dannicus Profile Options #7

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Morgan.Manjaw Lvl.60
Mount Tyrannas (PVP)
Castanic Priest
Karyudo on 04/16/2012, 09:55 AM - view
As you say in your post players have a "Least Resistance Mentality" in your system for OWPvP rewards the path of least resistance is for me to drop guild with my guild members wearing no armor and pk them for ungodly fast kills and huge rewards for doing so. Then rotate so everyone gets free pvp gear on the fast track. This is the major problem with adding any kind of reward to an FFA pvp system, it is very easy to exploit and adding in safe guards against it that are strong enough to stop the exploits ruins the point of the system for everyone else.

Big guilds get full top teir pvp gear in days, small guilds and anyone not exploiting the system is punished.


An important note about my proposed system is that Marks purchase boxes, similar in function to Lucky Eggs, that provide (insofar as gear is concerned) PvE loot. In other words, if players want to get a gold weapon or enchantables then the most reliable way is to instance and BAM. As well, boxes with craftables would also be provided. This way, it's supplemental, and the idiots who would like to just kill swap all day when they'd be much better off just running an instance a few times. Those who truly lack the interest in PvE can still, at a much more modest rate, gear through GvG and other open world or at a slow but steady rate through BGs.

I think it's obvious that, unless there is THAT much of an outcry when we finally get our hands on their finalized launch systems, EME will be putting in PvP gear of some kind. I offer this system for two major reasons: One, if there's going to be reward, DO NOT make PvE and PvP rewards mutually exclusive and reliant on themselves; and Two, ensure that OWPvP is the most rewarded non-SvS PvP but ensure players can still PvE for the most reliable rewards.
Reflexion7 Profile Options #8

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your TL;DR is too long imo...and a TL;DR of the TL;DR NOW!
Dannicus Profile Options #9

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Morgan.Manjaw Lvl.60
Mount Tyrannas (PVP)
Castanic Priest
Reflexion7 on 04/16/2012, 06:12 PM - view
your TL;DR is too long imo...and a TL;DR of the TL;DR NOW!

If that's the extent of your attention span, I don't think you belong on a forum...
Reflexion7 Profile Options #10

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NO YOU!