IMO the FFA vs faction argument is irrelevant. DAOC didn't have factions on its PvP server and it worked fine. With the current system you can avoid griefers by changing channels. I'm still not seeing the other reasons to PvP.
Would it help at all if I said channels are gone by max level? As you get to higher level zones the number of channels decrease until there is only 1.
Its a FFA system, there will always be pvp because someone did something to piss someone else off. No reason to give any further incentives, OW PvP will die because of LFG tool removing a reason to leave town not because its not rewarded. As long as there is something in OW to get people to leave town there will be OWPvP.
A PvP system based on revenge doesn't sound that great to me. The only PK will be griefers and those tired of getting PKed by griefers. People argue "it needs to be based on resources" but players might simply have the mentality "ok he was here first, our group can have next spawn" (as we have dont countless times in the past I'm sure) What's the point of even including OWPvP if its only for those reasons??? You get a reward for killing PvE but not PvP even though PvP is more challenging..
PvP should be its own reward, Resources are just a way to get people not interested in pvp out in the open for the PvP'ers to pray on. OW is not about PvP'ers killing PvP'ers Thats what Battle grounds are about, OW is about hunting people doing other things and catching them off guard and having the risk when you leave town of whatever other task your doing turning into pvp.
OW is not about PvPers killing PvPers??? Wtf. What is a GvG then? OW is about hunting people? Whats the current reason to go hunting? I would like to see a system where player's wouldnt be "off guard" because they're constantly in a state of awareness (What entices people to OWPvP) BG doesn't include as much of a terrain and environmental concern, which is why we want better OWPvP.
Have you used the Current GvG system? its about finding the other guilds noobs and hiding your own, unless you organize it in a BG deathmatch style outside a town in which case can use BG just as well. You go hunting because its fun? just my guess here cause that should be the point of playing the game in the first place. If you only go hunting to be rewarded with points what do you do once you aquire everything? quit and find a new game?
EDIT: and on that same note why were we able to see plenty of PvP happen in the last 2 betas? No one was being rewarded for pk, but there were plenty of reasons to leave town.
I can pretty much understand where everyone is coming from on this topic.
2 things
1) kill trading is going to happen whether there are pvp rewards or not, if there is a system that tracks your kills people WILL kill trade to get that number up, even if there is no other benefit to it than to get your kill total up.
2) if there are 0 rewards from doing pvp, (fighting over a bam and winning and getting it's loot is not a pvp reward, btw) people ARE NOT going to pvp, the most hardcore of pvper's still will but without anyone else to fight against they will eventually just turn to ganking quester's and such full time, this game seems to be based more around pvp than pve and if you don't get rewarded at all for doing pvp people are just gonna go pve until they run out of content and get bored, and i think we all know what comes after you get bored with a game
Have you used the Current GvG system? its about finding the other guilds noobs and hiding your own, unless you organize it in a BG deathmatch style outside a town in which case can use BG just as well. You go hunting because its fun? just my guess here cause that should be the point of playing the game in the first place. If you only go hunting to be rewarded with points what do you do once you aquire everything? quit and find a new game?
EDIT: and on that same note why were we able to see plenty of PvP happen in the last 2 betas? No one was being rewarded for pk, but there were plenty of reasons to leave town.
You have made the point for me that I've been trying to point out the past 10 pages of this thread. ATM there is no reason to PvP once you acquire everything. Yes hunting people for fun can be enjoyable (I have done it in the betas) but will it stay enjoyable for years? probably not.
IMO we saw lots of OWPvP in betas because 1) people were checking out the outlaw systems, 2) practicing their character's abilities 3) out of boredom since they don't need to push to level since that character will be wiped anyway.
A healthy OWPvP experience during a beta weekend does not necessarily equate to healthy OWPvP a year from now.
My reading Comp? your missing the nice wonderful "FFA SYSTEM!!!!" Your incentive to PvP: he took my mob, he looks stupid, hes a popori anything that floats your boat. As long as people have a reason to leave town people will come up with reasons to PK people. Aion Had little pvp because there was no reason to be in the OW to begin with (which you hit on! they had your incentive for pvp and it didnt make any difference!) save maybe farming balaur mats or guards. The best source of AP was instances, The best source of gear was instances, the Risks in OW far outweighted the rewards. Almost all PvP fights were either someone was caught out gathering or leveling or on the way to an instance. In a FFA System (this is the important part) there will always be reasons to pvp as long as there are reasons to leave town. Lack of incentive is not what kills OW pvp, lack of reasons to go out and risk being pvp'ed is what kills OW pvp.
What happens at cap, when most of the people are in instances. Also, people are inherently carebears. Our society as a whole discriminates against violence and discourages it in every way possible, so most of us, supposedly as good citizens, would just randomly kill people at cap if they don't get pushed into it by some major annoyance. There will be like 1 person going on a random elin killing spree just because...and a week later he's done with that.
In Aion, the best source of AP was not instances, that was the safest source of AP. I got a piece of my 50 elite gear every week through PvP and so did my friend who I partied with. If 6 people went out and PvPed for a week they would get 4-5x the amount of AP you could get from doing instances every day for a week and all 5 would get a piece of gear not just 1 person who gets fed by his 5 friends. People just chose the path of least resistance... as I keep writing and you can't seem to understand. NO READING COMPREHENSION.
Also, lack of incentives to PvP translates to lack of reason to be out in the world at cap. PvP is maybe 80%(rough guesstimation) of why you would stay out in the world. Gathering and such isn't done by everyone and most people avoid it because it's boring...and the ones that do it will not PvP, because they are trying to gather and it's a bother for them to "waste their time on PvP". The other incentives are farming drops...and if you are PvPing the farmers, they eventually stop farming because it's not worth it and PvP dies out rather quickly (farming bloods at core?). The best way to make PvP happen is to encourage the act of PvPing, not simply have people who don't want to PvP out in the world getting killed and frustrated. Even guild mates will stop helping you if you cry every 10 mins because you're farming and you got ganked when there is no reward for helping you.
There will always be reasons to PvP in any game, the important point is to have enough reasons where the majority of the population at cap CHOOSES to PvP.
The disadvantage would happen no matter what. If there's no gear from pvp with pvp-centric stats then people would get gear from instances and the new player would still be disadvantaged gear-wise. PVP gear simply allows people to get gear that is best for pvp through pvping rather than through pve like Aion or Vanilla WoW. At least in this game you can dodge and avoid attacks that are used poorly for the most part so you aren't garaunteed screwed when you run into somebody better geared than you.
If you do things like a standardized set of gear for BGs you still have the problem in OWPVP and you'll also be left with, unfortunately, only like 5% of the players pvping since most people do things for rewards.
PvP is direct competition. Those who have will win vs those who have not. Where as PvE, those who have will only at best slow down those who have not. Thus new players can always catch up through PvE gear so long as their opponents are also on PvE gear.
Good point, except, that means you have to PvE for a long [filtered] time to be able to PvP at all...OR, you can PvP those who don't have (like yourself) and gain the tools to PvP those that have...
Another counter argument is that in Tera skill means a lot more than class and gear plays less of a role, which means you can win against people who have somewhat better gear by being better at PvP and PvEing won't close that skill gap for you. In a healthy MMO you will have the 3 different levels of gear:
- the newly capped (people who are at your level as a newcomer and will give you the fairest fight, so you can fight them to get PvP gear)
- the average geared (people who someone with no gear may win against depending on skill)
- the fully geared (people who play the game hardcore as if their life depends on it and have gotten all gear faster than the average players), you generally won't win vs those guys and even average gear players will have a very uphill battle
You really can't tell me you expect to play the game 5 hours per week and win against someone who invested 60 hours per week in it, that's just not how MMOs work because of the whole progression factor that is a major selling point of MMOs.
So... like you would work yourself up to the hard levels of a PvE dungeon to get the best drops by gearing up with the lower grade drops from the easy and normal modes, you would also work yourself up to the hardcore standards in PvP by killing newcomers and average geared players.
What happens at cap, when most of the people are in instances. Also, people are inherently carebears. Our society as a whole discriminates against violence and discourages it in every way possible, so most of us, supposedly as good citizens, would just randomly kill people at cap if they don't get pushed into it by some major annoyance. There will be like 1 person going on a random elin killing spree just because...and a week later he's done with that.
In Aion, the best source of AP was not instances, that was the safest source of AP. I got a piece of my 50 elite gear every week through PvP and so did my friend who I partied with. If 6 people went out and PvPed for a week they would get 4-5x the amount of AP you could get from doing instances every day for a week and all 5 would get a piece of gear not just 1 person who gets fed by his 5 friends. People just chose the path of least resistance... as I keep writing and you can't seem to understand. NO READING COMPREHENSION.
Also, lack of incentives to PvP translates to lack of reason to be out in the world at cap. PvP is maybe 80%(rough guesstimation) of why you would stay out in the world. Gathering and such isn't done by everyone and most people avoid it because it's boring...and the ones that do it will not PvP, because they are trying to gather and it's a bother for them to "waste their time on PvP". The other incentives are farming drops...and if you are PvPing the farmers, they eventually stop farming because it's not worth it and PvP dies out rather quickly (farming bloods at core?). The best way to make PvP happen is to encourage the act of PvPing, not simply have people who don't want to PvP out in the world getting killed and frustrated. Even guild mates will stop helping you if you cry every 10 mins because you're farming and you got ganked when there is no reward for helping you.
There will always be reasons to PvP in any game, the important point is to have enough reasons where the majority of the population at cap CHOOSES to PvP.
Best source of AP depends on time available and ranks you were lucky enough to run into. For the time spent the instances were far better AP then going out PK'ing. If you managed to get lots of officers as they tried to enter their instances sure PK'ing could yield better results. You only find people under rank 5 you’re wasting your time. I fully understand path of least resistance its why people will exploit a OW PvP system that has any holes in the safeguards.
I fully agree OW PvP rewards would be a reason for people to go out in the open, but it’s not the only incentive that exists. % of the reason to go out depends on the player. My argument is that as long as there is a reason to go out PvP will happen, by that extension if there aren’t enough reasons that means I 100% agree with you that OW PvP dies!. I've stated it before but it gets lost so easily, I would fully support and love to see OW PvP rewards that were not going to simply turned into an exploit2win system. The problem is all I see when people talk about the OW PvP rewards in a FFA system is the one that exploits the system wins and those that legitimately use it are screwed.
Have you used the Current GvG system? its about finding the other guilds noobs and hiding your own, unless you organize it in a BG deathmatch style outside a town in which case can use BG just as well. You go hunting because its fun? just my guess here cause that should be the point of playing the game in the first place. If you only go hunting to be rewarded with points what do you do once you aquire everything? quit and find a new game?
EDIT: and on that same note why were we able to see plenty of PvP happen in the last 2 betas? No one was being rewarded for pk, but there were plenty of reasons to leave town.
You have made the point for me that I've been trying to point out the past 10 pages of this thread. ATM there is no reason to PvP once you acquire everything. Yes hunting people for fun can be enjoyable (I have done it in the betas) but will it stay enjoyable for years? probably not.
IMO we saw lots of OWPvP in betas because 1) people were checking out the outlaw systems, 2) practicing their character's abilities 3) out of boredom since they don't need to push to level since that character will be wiped anyway.
A healthy OWPvP experience during a beta weekend does not necessarily equate to healthy OWPvP a year from now.
Well, with no rewards for PvP, you would PvE for the gear, get the gear then...PvP for fun? Not what most people will do. By the time you get all your PvE gear...guess what, new expansion happens...that's how all MMOs work.
Either way, people won't be motivated to PvP if they don't like PvP, except getting PvP gear through PvP will at least let them PvP long enough to let other people PvP, and with constant influx of new players, that means those who REALLY like to PvP will always have opponents, and those who got their gear and decided they didn't like PvP... will probably wait for the expansion because they obviously only play to get the best gear (that's their whole reason for playing, the progression). They have served their job by participating and encouraging PvP.
Converseley, if they PvE for 3 months and PvP for a week when they get max gear... they only spent 1 week PvPing and stopped playing, and anyone that likes PvP will have very few opponents to fight and they will mostly be max geared and probably be really bad at PvP because they didn't practice....that's not really good competition.