[quote name='Pyrolight' at='03/18/2012, 06:51 PM']
Of course there are I don't think anyone would actually argue that. They are a vast minority though.[/quote]
Perhaps, but what I've seen first hand suggests otherwise though. I tend to trust my own experience as it's often reliable for me.
[quote name='Pyrolight' at='03/18/2012, 06:51 PM']Considering you all but admit you are not remotely objective at this point I don't think your opinion on who or what is a troll can be trusted.[/quote]
Considering I never accused anyone in particular of being a troll in my post, I don't understand what point your trying to make. Perhaps you did so out of conviction? ;P
As to what you said though, I believe I am one of the most suitably positioned individuals to recognizing who the trolls are as I have been around for this issue for a while now and frequently have had to deal with them. That and the fact that the majority of them come across as rather obvious. Really though, I again don't see the point of what you brought up. It's not like I'm applying to be a mod, although if I was a mod, you can be sure that there would be a lot more order on these forums than there is currently. But that has little to do with anything I said.
[quote name='Pyrolight' at='03/18/2012, 06:51 PM']
have looked past not having the originals but I would have been utterly shocked if it even represented 30% of the anti censorship ("I am a big-boy" or "censorship sucks") crowd.
The fact they are censored is the big issue for the bulk of the people "complaining". People who just wanted better art are and would still be the minority if they got it.[/quote]
It represents almost everyone actually. You seem to have little understanding of the core reasons of why people are upset. Sure, it is rooted in the original vs. change debate which has been going on for well over a year now, but by the time that was slowing down on the old forum, many people were at a place where they would of been okay enough with things if the changes were done well.
In-fact, what fueled many debates back then, were due to what was believed to be rough draft pictures of the changes that were known for quite some time. They were not first perceived as rough drafts is what got so many people upset about it in the first place. Many people then convinced themselves that they were, and for good reason, I was one of them who did, and it turns out, they were actually the final product. Needless to say, the people who had convinced themselves they were rough drafts became very upset over it. Especially due to how many debates spawned due to issues of quality. Although it's true many wave the anti-censorship banner, it's only because it was an established party with a quick fix to what many people found tacky. Of course, it was very possible to make designs that went beyond the originals and these copy and pasted shorts, and that's what many of these now upset people were banking on.
I'm not saying there aren't those who only truly want the originals, but their upset feelings would of been heavily mitigated if the changes actually showed care and quality. They simply do not show those things as there is no care or quality involved in copying and pasting designs. Which don't even dye well on top of that. It's a very legitimate source of stigma and that is why it is so present and so relentless.
[quote name='Pyrolight' at='03/18/2012, 06:51 PM']It is the censorship that caused the outrage, the quality exasperated it. People were pissed long before the edits became available.
You can't put the cart before the horse.[/quote]
[quote=plum]You aren't understanding where the majority of the anti-censorship people based their camp on though. They did so on the grounds that the censorship would bring tacky designs to the Elins. What you are seeing is the result of their worst fears realized and thus the response. On top of that, you have people who came late who were expecting what was seen as rough drafts to be improved upon. No matter what way you look at it, the issue was not handled in any way to mitigate upset feelings over the issue. It has always been the most argued issue in the old forums history as well. The only rationial conclusion I can come up with how they handled this, is they(EME/BHS) decided to go with a long term remedy instead of an immediate fix for whatever reason.[/color]
[quote name='Pyrolight' at='03/18/2012, 06:51 PM']Banning the Elin players complaining would end the issue and that is the only way.
Stopping the so called "attacks" would not stop the anti censorship crowd since they would exist regardless and it fully supporting improved art would increase the number of threads on the subject so I cannot exactly fathom how you came to your... interesting conclusion.
Again supporting would mean more threads and trolling did not create the anti censorship crowd and their threads. [/quote]
Careful, your painting yourself as a troll. But I'ma give you the benefit of the doubt and sum it up to ignorance. If EME wanted to go that route, by the time they banned all the complainers, they would of done two things. One, made an enemy out of anyone that opposed censorship, with the mass banning catalyzing as a mass number of martyrs which would summon upon them extreme negative attention. It's common sense for a business not to do something so foolish as to banish/shun those who send you complaints over something they have a disagreement with, especially when it's such a wide scale movement. After-all, they are making this game for us, not themselves, because they want our money and thus, for us to be happy. They would simply lose out every time they banned someone. That the second thing they would accomplish.
There is actually a third thing as well. If they banned all the complainers, they would of banned a large chunk of the Elin fan base. That would just be an intiial loss too. It would simply not end there. It would of forever leave a stain on the race, much worse than whatever odium you currently perceive on its player base. They might as well jettison the race all together at that point, throwing away massive amounts of profits. At that point, they would of lost enough potential money though, that either way they handled that, they would have already shot themselves in the foot. The game would likely continue, but it would have to make up for less income by producing slower content, which would put a large dent in the game's lifespan. Not exactly a good way to go about launching a game.
Regardless though, they haven't done such a thing, and aren't. You don't have to accept what I said, but you should accept that EME/BHS did create the Elins and decide to bring them along to the NA version of the game. Both actions suggest they believe the race appeals to a large enough player base to justify their creation and importation. It's a ridiculous topic to talk about though, and serves only as a distraction to the reality around us. Unless you wish to rile people up of course, but then you would be a troll at that point. ;P
[quote name='Pyrolight' at='03/18/2012, 06:51 PM']Since it was BH that did the edits it is extremely likely they decided not to waste a large amount of art time making top notch edits for armours that will be replaced before the new endgame.
I would never expect markedly improved designs at any point for existing armours.[/quote]
You're either suggesting that anything non-endgame isn't important, which is a load of BS, or are suggesting they would be replaced by new models in the future, which simply isn't true at this point which has been confirmed. You are also mistaken in that it would be a waste. It would go a long way to mitigate the upset feelings of many people. Granted, as I suggested, a band-aid could suffice, and eventually better designs will come our way, but until enough people are at that point in the game to use such armor, the forum rage will remain as prevelant as it is now. It is common sense that it would if the cause of the effect is in constant application, which it is until it's dealt with or effectively mitigated by another effect.
[quote name='Pyrolight' at='03/18/2012, 06:51 PM']Elin people complain, trolls have fun, Elin people complain louder, trolls have more fun, the circle of life.[/quote]
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you calling it the circle of life was an attempt at a joke. xP It is a loop that is making things worse. It's provoking upset people, and causing more chaos and discourse, and to that effect, a bigger divide in the community, which comes with a whole slew of various issues that are likely to linger for quite some time. It's nothing to be passive about, it really does need to come to an end as it will only get worse, and thus only bring about worse consequences to the community, and thus the game.
[quote name='Pyrolight' at='03/18/2012, 06:51 PM']1. Yes it causes more chaos
2. It will not stop people screaming about the censorship issue. That is what needs to stop.
Again even removing every troll people would still complain about the censorship defeating the point and annoying the rest of us to no end.[/quote]
Trolling is making it worse. It's provoking people to complain more. It simply isn't helping, in fact, it is hurting the situation, and thus the community, and thus the game.
And yes, people will complain even without others trolling them, but that is to be expected until EME does something about what the people are upset about. Trolling however, as I said, is adding fuel to the complaints and contributing to their vast volume. There are likely to be a fair few regardless due to the magnitude of the issue due to sensitivity on the subject that has built up around it.
The biggest thing about the trolling though, is in provoking an indiviusal, you cause that individual to act on their emotions rather than think rationally, which in turn makes it less likely that they will become organized over the issue. Organization is something that is good to both parties. It means less, but more focused threads, making it easier for people who are upset to communicate with each other and to work collectively instead of like scatter shot.
Not to mention the obvious, but trolling also simply brings out the worse in people. It also leaves a negative stigma in the air and causes diverges in the community, which in turn weakens the foundation of this game.
[quote name='Pyrolight' at='03/18/2012, 06:51 PM']It's a game forum it will never end heh.[/quote]
Things are the way they are due to effects and causes, not because of what they are in their selves. :P
[quote name='Pyrolight' at='03/18/2012, 06:51 PM']I can't see it helping honestly. People would just complain about EME trying to make us forget about the issue.
People are not overly rational these days.[/quote]
You're misunderstanding. The purpose of the content wouldn't be directly to make people forget about the issue. It would be to give content that makes the whole situation more bearable and adds something to the area that was affected by the changes. That being the fashion aspect of the game for Elin players. It would merely indirectly cause people to forget about what they are upset about. The direct effect though would be happiness and a beckon of unexpected content for an area they had concerns about. The fact that my suggestion in particular could be applied to all races was merely a bonus, a good bonus at that~
[quote name='Pyrolight' at='03/18/2012, 06:51 PM']Anyway the thing that likely bugs me the most in the whole issue is that some people seem to think it was ever about "us" aka the players.
My description of the situation in a nutshell
EME was never worried about the players who would be interesting in TERA being capable of understanding the nature of the Elin or being mature and rational enough to make the distinction between reality and fantasy.
EME was worried about those bat[filtered] crazy mofos who are constantly looking for something to crusade against to make themselves feel important.
EME was worried that they might see some footage of the Elin and start screaming like a frantic howler monkey about how there is the game called TERA that is displaying characters that appear to be children in a perverse manner.
It's a shame said groups wield a disproportionate amount of power and justify their existence by trying to show the world they hold the moral high ground.[/quote]
This is meaningless to anything that matters. There are several theories on why the changes happened, but the reason to their implementation is as I said, simply meaningless. There is no point in arguing it or considering it as it has nothing to do with what the core source of the stigma is. This is not even a controversial issue anymore. This is simply people wanting designs to be improved upon, or to be more direct for those who can't seem to see that rather obvious connection; this is about people being upset with how EME handled a very sensitive issue that has been so, in a very obvious way, for quite some time now.
Furthermore, this is about what they can do to mitigate the choices they went with. They already have developed a long term remedy in what appears to be in the shape of new designs looking well w/o having any textured being copy and pasted upon them, but it isn't going to do much for the upset feelings of people now. In light of that, I say again, a band aid to this would go a long way. I offered merely one way to provide one. There are many ways it could be done. Ideally, if people could come together and come up with more for EME to see to inspire them, it would be a good way to put upset feelings to constructive use. Of course, there is no organization among upset Elin players and that has a lot to do with the chaos and discourse caused by trolls. And thus what I said earlier. :/
I can only hope people are using the ticket system to send suggestions instead like I have been doing due to being fed up with this forum's community as I'm sure many others are as well. Due much more to trolls than complaint threads which anyone is more than capable of ignoring to begin with; unless of course you are all really little 10 year old children, which if that is the case, by all means, indulge in your lack of any self control and embrace the immaturity that is often associated with your age by provoking and insulting others. That sure has been helping things. :P (Not speaking to anyone in particular, but to trolls in generals by the way for clarity.)
Edited by: ExValkyrie
about 1 year ago
- Reason: Trying to fix quotes but with no luck... xP