It's the same as playing a healer class - no matter how much you upgrade your weapon and overheal the heck out of your teammates, ES/TN remains the same and the dungeon still won't go faster. It's part of the package that you get when you signed up for the class alongside the perk of "instant queues".
Soloing my baby has been one hell of a battle. I do nil for damage; it takes almost a minute to kill a mob, even with Hunter's crystals on, and even after the BAM nerf it takes at least ten minutes to kill a basilisk with Boss crystals? Ugh. I have more fun soloing my DPSes and even my healers than I do my main, who I rolled as a Lancer to try the class on a new server. :/
I soloed a basilisk in less than 10 minutes when I first started my lancer back in June, before both the BAM nerf and the patches that increased lancer DPS by a few multipliers (I had no wallop back then, for instance, and everything did less damage). I seriously do not see how they are taking 10+ minutes for you now. Are you spamming just combo attack and blocking until your resolve runs out?
Also, a warrior solos slower than a lancer now. Not on BAMs, of course, but on packs of normal mobs because of longer combo execution times. The warrior's easy of back attacks advantage goes away on packs of normal mobs, while on my lancer two wallops usually finishes the job without much hassle.
What I'm confused about though is that as a healing class...we keep YOU alive. Yes, we also self-heal, and that makes us harder to kill than other classes, but that's all in the factor of keeping YOU alive.
This is one of the first misconceptions of every class: that they are much more important than anyone else on the team, and thus should obtain preferential treatment for their class.
In a dungeon, the DPS are the people that take down the boss. The tank is the one that keeps the boss in place and focuses most of the attacks on himself, allowing the DPS more opportunities to attack. In the same words that you used here, DPS kill the boss so YOU get the loot. Tanks keep the boss in place so that YOU don't just die from its attacks. In the grand scheme of things, healing is just one of the three components that ensure that a dungeon run is successful; saying that it is somehow much more important than the other two is a VERY self-centered position to take.
In PvP? Healers heal DPS, yes. Healers also heal enemy DPS. Let's take the extreme case of a healer that is immune to all damage and can keep up to X people alive forever while healing himself. As a DPS who is trying to kill people on the opposite team, is it really fun to spend so much time taking down the enemy only to see their HP go back up to full, knowing full well that you can do absolutely nothing about it? It happened before in the early days of RIFT 1.3, when a geared healer can kite 10-15 people at a time without his HP dropping and there . I can tell you this right now - that crap is absolutely NOT fun for anyone on the other team.
This is why an MMORPG aims to achieve balance, not to appease a certain class or role to the exclusion of all else. The fact that you heal other people does not guarantee special treatment for the class at all, and it is the goal of an MMO to ensure this.
I have 5 level 60's, and I PvP with my Priest and my Mystic mostly. Whenever I screw up, or somebody pulls off a lucky combo / critical on me, and I die quickly, all I hear from my teammates is complaints. "You should stay alive longer, blah blah", but at the same time you want our heals nerfed so that not only do we heal ourselves for less, but we also supply less heals to YOU as well? I don't understand what you guys want.
First of all, the people that complain about your heals is not necessarily the same people that want healing nerfs. That itself is a fallacy to try to generalize an entire diverse group of players into one easy strawman so that they can be made to look more ridiculous on the forums. This is especially because the interest group is different for these two cases - one (you should stay alive longer) is PvE, the other (nerf heals) is PvP.
Imagine the worst priest you can in the world. I'm not saying that it's you (I'm sure you're plenty awesome as a healer), but imagine if such a person decided to make a post on the forums and say that "priests need to be invincible to damage so that my 3 second delay won't get me killed in PvE", using this exact same argument for anyone who argues against him. Does it sound ridiculous when placed in this context?
Even if the two groups are the same, the fact that people are complaining about your ability to stay alive does not, in any way, imply automatically that the class is lacking in survivability. There are tons of different factors going into it - player skill, for one, not to mention that many of the things that kill healers end-game PvE tend to be one-shots that a nerf to self heals does absolutely nothing to counter. A DPS with a iWin button can also complain about people that expect him to DPS harder if that iWin button gets removed; does that invalidate the claim that the iWin button needs to be removed?
Mindaugas on 07/04/2013, 11:09 PM - view
Well...I do understand what you guys want. You want to be able to "easily" kill healers, instead of being kited all day....not realizing that at the same time, it would mean your quicker demise as well. Nerfing our heals / survivability also nerfs your survivability as well, which would only cause more complaints to us healers who can't heal back the 80% damage you just took from that Sorc's Fireblast in time.
Who exactly are you, to claim not only that everyone that argues against you has the exact same hive mindset but also that you can read their minds without even knowing who 90% of them are?
What if someone understands that it would mean a quicker demise for themselves, but want to push for a nerf anyway because heck - it would make PvP more fun for them? Sure, there are some people that will complain about inadequate healing, but there are people that complain about everything. I almost bet that if I look hard enough, I could find someone who is offended that someone else in PvP has the name they want, or that a lancer's giga leash is on cooldown the moment they decided to use their fireblast, or that fraywind canyon isn't neon blue. "They" that complain about too much healing are probably not the same people that whine about inadequate healers in BGs.
Mindaugas on 07/04/2013, 11:09 PM - view
It's already hard to survive as it is with Lancer / Warrior / Sorcerer's healing debuff that cuts our healing output in half, but if you actually want our heals to be cut even more than It already is, and will be more-so in the future comes the new Visionmaker sets, you better be willing to see a lot quicker fights, and a LOT of dying from just taking in more damage than we healers can return back to you.
Inb4 people nearly getting 1-hit from one attack, and us only being able to generally give you back 50% of your HP (25% with healing debuff) back before you get hit by 2 more attacks and die...and getting [filtered]ed at about it due to "Bad heals".
Woah, this is quite the slippery slope argument here.
MMORPGs are always in a cycle of balance. If people are easily getting two-shot (if they are one-shot, your heals won't be doing very much) and people want heals to be balanced at 50% of the target's HP, eventually, the damage on DPS will be nerfed so that people aren't getting two-shot anymore.
Mindaugas on 07/04/2013, 11:09 PM - view
In no way is this a complaint thread about the "nerf" on healers due to adding crit healing, this is just a different view from the DPS / Tanks I see who speak on behalf of healers (while not even having one to experience), but fail to realize they suffer from our nerfs as well.
You will be amazed at how many of those same people have healer alts that they play often as well. Well, actually, you probably won't as you probably have DPS alts yourself, but not maining a DPS does not mean that your opponents are all tunnel-visioned and can't see all the consequences of their arguments.
In short, your argument is entirely an emotional appeal to the masses. It can be summed down into three sentences: "healers should not be nerfed because they are healers", "anyone arguing against me are hypocrites, no exceptions", and "if you nerf healing, it will lead to a slippery slope where DPS one-shot people and the TERA world will end."
Also, it's not that I disagree with your arguments. I've just seen too many of these types of posts from healing classes over the years (and I play a healer on many of them, too!) that it's become a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
annd All kinds of Endurance Debuff work on Manaya
not just CS and Debilitate mentioned in the patch notes
We definitely know that queen is vulnerable to CS, TC, Poison Arrow, and the thunderlash effect, then :D.
Still, there's a priest and two archers in the party, and neither triple nemesis nor velik's mark is on the boss. Thus, I'm guessing that she's still not vulnerable to everything - maybe just DoTs and the war/lancer endurance debuffs?
Combattive Strike overlaps debilitate, unfortunately, so a warrior DPS still adds nothing to queen. The main difference is that debilitate stacks for 9% while CS is only 4.5%, so using a lancer tank in place of a warrior tank nets 45 points of additional endurance debuff.
Has anyone else noticed the totally unnecessary nerf of MCHM? removed inmunity to debilitate and combative strike??? somehow i saw that coming already. lets hope EME can be smart for when that update arrives and dont apply that nerf. i like queen the way it is and it doesnt need any nerfs.
That's rather hilarious. I understand why they stopped at CS, but it feels like BHS is giving a huge middle finger to warrior tanks.
A few weeks after AC/MC were first released, a bunch of friends and I decided to try it out. Back then we still only had weekend nexus and Agnitor costs about 19k credits for the weapon, so I was the only one in the group that has a T14 weapon (also the highest ilvl at 151). Most of the group was decked out in +9 T13 gear since that's what everyone had back then. We were also the three worst DPS classes at the time: berserker (back when they couldn't do any damage), archer, and warrior with meldita being practically immune to traverse cut.
End result? We were able to easily kill every boss except Meldita. Meldita himself wasn't the problem - we just didn't have enough AoE DPS to clear out the spawns in time. Nowadays, if you have a single slayer, zerker, or sorc with decent gear, the spawns cease to be a problem and meldita becomes trivial.
Ultimately, ilvl 154 is plenty enough for ACHM. However, you will find that most players excessively overestimate the amount of gear needed for any dungeon (I've seen player expectations for BTHM jump from 149 to 154 a few days after QoA was released), so the "safe" item level is probably 157.
(Also, the first boss isn't a problem. You don't need anywhere close to +12 weapons to do enough damage to it before the ground from filling up with poison).
The Elin ones are bad... why are they wearing socks (leggings?) with their swimsuits...?
IIRC, there is also a castanic swimsuit that is almost identical to the current torpedo swimsuits, except with fishnets added on top.
I suspect Japan is involved in these incidents.
It might be a good idea to make all of the agnitor rep gear (T13 and T14 - T12 optional but doesn't hurt) be eligible as template in the mean time due to the current lack of BG template replacements.
I am just curious - now that these have been reverted to level 58 dungeons, what drops in these? Is there anything that warrants running these dungeons (other than just for the fun of it, of course), or are they all superceded by the spire equipment we're handed before heading into pathfinder?
If I remember right, zerkers not being wanted had most to do with the lancers being the only other heavy armour class, and them wanting to have exclusive right to the plate drops. So it'd be "kick that zerker or good luck waiting hour+ for another tank lancer and one that actually won't mind a zerk lololol"
That wasn't the sole issue, since archers were also getting the shaft quite often in those times despite wearing leather. Here's an old post with KonpakuYoumu estimating the zerker's DPS back then (note that at this point his zerker is in full +12 dreamkeepers) to be about 60% of a poorly geared sorc.